Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Maria Miller interviewed by Janice Turner - full text

84 replies

IndominusRex · 31/07/2017 07:38

Maria Miller gathers up her handbag and makes to leave: “I don’t think I’m happy about this. I think I’ve finished . . . I didn’t realise this was such a stitch-up.” I’ve been questioning Ms Miller about a report on transgender rights she produced last year as chairwoman of the women and equalities committee. The government has just announced that it will go to further consultation this autumn.
Maria Miller gathers up her handbag and makes to leave: “I don’t think I’m happy about this. I think I’ve finished . . . I didn’t realise this was such a stitch-up.” I’ve been questioning Ms Miller about a report on transgender rights she produced last year as chairwoman of the women and equalities committee. The government has just announced that it will go to further consultation this autumn.

Many of its recommendations, to redress hate crime against transgender people, to improve access to NHS services and stop discrimination in employment (as seen in President Trump’s cruel, summary banning of up to 6,600 transgender US military personnel), are widely supported. But one proposal that seeks to change the very definition of “man” and “woman” has far-reaching implications.

Justine Greening, the equalities minister, announced her support this week for changes to the 2004 Gender Recognition Act, echoing calls by Jeremy Corbyn, the Labour leader. At present a person who wishes to change gender legally must be 18, demonstrate they have lived in their chosen gender for two years, have a diagnosis of “gender dysphoria” (a mental disorder whereby a person feels they don’t feel they belong in their biological sex) and be questioned by an expert panel.

The heart of the controversy is the view, espoused by Ms Miller’s report, that switching gender should instead merely be a matter of “self-definition”. A man need only “declare” that he is a woman. Your gender is what you feel it to be: there would be no requirement even to take female hormones or have surgery — about 70 per cent of trans women still have intact male genitals — or even “present” as a woman to be legally female. (Some older trans people are troubled by this, believing that it trivialises and delegitimises their struggles to live in their non-birth gender.)

Furthermore, if the law changes, “gender identity” is likely to become a protected characteristic under equalities legislation: ie if you deny a person is a woman or a man when they claim to be, you are guilty of discrimination or hate crime.

When Ms Miller, 53, released her report in January last year she was surprised that criticism came not from conservatives but, as she put it, “women who purport to be feminists”. This may be because feminists, well versed in sexual politics and long-time supporters of gay rights, are among the few people who can penetrate the arcane, confusing terminology.

Many see potential loopholes and conflicts of rights that put women at risk, giving men access to rare female-only spaces such as single-sex wards, changing rooms and domestic violence refuges, designed to keep them safe and private. It is these concerns I put to Ms Miller in her Basingstoke constituency.

Take this scenario: a man enters a female communal changing area, removes his clothes while women get undressed. Now they have a right to ask him to leave. Under gender self-definition, if he said “I identify as a woman” he would be entitled to stay. This, I stress, is unlikely to be a trans woman — many who use women’s changing rooms every day with discretion and no fuss — but could be a sexual predator exploiting the loophole. (There have been a growing number of cases in the US, including a man in Seattle using women’s pool facilities claiming “the law has changed, I have a right to be here”.) Does Ms Miller not see why women fear a conflict of rights?

“But 50 years ago, maybe ten years ago, people felt very uncomfortable about gay people showing their relationships in public but life has moved on.” This isn’t a question of feelings, however, but of physical safety and privacy which, as the author of another report on sexual abuse, she surely understands?

I show her a photograph of a bearded, male-born American called Danielle Muscato who dresses in men’s suits and ties, has made no attempt to transition but nonetheless “identifies as female” and insists on living in a women’s homeless shelter. On International Women’s Day he tweeted: “Some women have penises. If you’re bothered by this, you can suck my dick.”Alex Drummond is a lush-bearded British psychotherapist who claims to be a woman, without any transition, who is “expanding the bandwidth of gender.”

These people should be free from all abuse and discrimination, but do they have the right to women’s spaces? “There will be individuals who will try to use this as an abuse of the system but you cannot disregard the rights of 600,000 people in this country,” Ms Miller says, referring to an estimate of people who express unhappiness with their birth gender. But can you ignore the rights of 30 million women? “No. And nobody’s suggesting that that’s the case.”

So do you think that women and girls should have a right to object to male-bodied individuals undressing among them. “How an individual presents themselves is really up to them,” she says. “Nobody is saying this is an easy set of decisions. I think that is a legitimate part of the consultation.”

Ms Miller says that self-definition is misunderstood “as some amateurish way of trying to recognise somebody’s change. In our report we made it very clear that this would not simply be somebody being able to pull a form off the internet, sign it and call themselves a woman because that would be open to abuse.” Her committee envisaged each person receiving “psychological support . . . to make sure that they’re making the right decision for them” instead of “this quasi-medicalised panel which has brought great distress to transgender people”. She would not confirm that the new self-definition process would ever query an application.

How does she think this rule will effect the operation of women’s domestic violence refuges, several of which submitted concerns to her inquiry that clients would be distressed having fled brutal men if male-bodied individuals were granted access. In Toronto, Christopher Hambrook claimed to be a trans woman to access a refuge then raped residents. “These spaces carry out a risk assessment before individuals are allowed to use them and those that pose a risk to safety are not necessarily one gender.” But 90 per cent of violent crime and 98 per cent of sexual crime is committed by men. Trans women, such as Davina Ayrton, who raped a 15-year-old girl, have been convicted of offences seldom committed by natal females. Would self-identification mean these crimes would be registered as committed by women, skewing the figures? “It should be registered in the gender of the person when they committed the crime.” This would mean that if Katie Brannen, charged with twice raping a man in South Shields, is convicted that crime would be recorded on female statistics even though legally women cannot commit rape.

Sport is another problematic area: self-identification could destroy women’s competitions, allowing former-men with greater musculature and testosterone to dominate. In New Zealand a weightlifter, Laurel Hubbard, has broken national records; in Canada the mountain biker Michelle Dumaresq dominated for years. “Those are already issues that professional bodies have to deal with. And again that is something which needs to be looked at in significant detail.”

I ask her about school sports. In Connecticut Andraya Yearwood, a male-bodied, moustachioed 15-year-old trans girl, has won state championships although she would have finished last in the boys’ competition. Does Ms Miller think this fair to the girl athletes? “Well, I think it’s a bit of a difficult one to answer because boys are not going through gender reassignment when they’re at school.” But what would you say to the girls who lost? “It’s a very difficult one to answer . . .”

She adds: “What I think we’re touching on here is that trans issues are something that still strike a nerve in British society.” Compiling her report she was moved by young trans folk “just trying to get on with their lives in a quiet manner . . . The idea of individuals being not of one gender or another is not a new thing.”

Yet this very idea of “non-binary” or “gender fluidity” is challenged by feminists. Because it assumes that being female is a narrow category: involving pink, make-up, girlie pursuits as opposed to the male world of noise, fun and muddy sports. Isn’t the epidemic of girls wanting to transition — they make up 1,000 out of the Tavistock clinic’s 1,400 referrals — a rebellion against society’s rigid gender strictures rather than a sign that they were “born in the wrong body” and require hormones? This is around the point at which Ms Miller threatens to leave. She relents and we talk a little longer. Although Ms Miller as equalities minister guided gay marriage through parliament, she is at heart a home counties conservative who in 2007 voted against regulations to stop discrimination on the grounds of sexual orientation. She voted to lower the abortion limit to 20 weeks and for a Nadine Dorries amendment to stop abortion providers such as Marie Stopes giving counselling.

She looks alarmed when I ask about these stances and instead seizes on the government’s decision — pushed by Labour’s Stella Creasy — to fund NHS abortions of women in Northern Ireland. “It is a sticking plaster for the short term. There should be equal rights for women across the UK.” But wouldn’t this mean overriding the devolved assembly, whose major party the DUP is in coalition with the Tories? “I think this should be seen as a human rights issue and I’m glad it is in front of the Supreme Court.”

What does she say to those who believe the government’s sudden announcement of trans reform is to counter bad publicity garnered by allying with the anti-gay marriage DUP or to win young votes. “Absolutely ludicrous!” she cries.

She says that her experience as a woman and a mother who has faced discrimination and sexism has made her receptive to the rights of minority groups such as trans people and their families. She puts the concerns of feminists about material changes to their rights and safety into the same category as religious objections, like those of the Christian bakers who refused to make a cake for a gay couple. “There are always jagged edges to the law which create tensions, and we are going into new territory here.”

OP posts:
InfiniteSheldon · 31/07/2017 12:16

Thank you for posting

FedUpWithBriiiiiick · 31/07/2017 12:21

Great post dollydotty

Popchyck · 31/07/2017 12:21

Hello Dotty. Thanks for your post.

Do you have a view on what living as the opposite gender for 2 years might mean? I do find that bit of it quite difficult to envisage.

If I decided to live as a man for 2 years, I can't see much difference in how I would "live" if that makes sense. I suppose I could make minor changes to my appearance (we are rural and most women round here live in trousers and wellies same as the men), but I'd still have the same job, be the same parent, have the same interests.

My DH and I are quite similar in temperament and have broadly similar interests. If I tried to take my cues from him about 'living as a man', I don't think I would change much at all from what I am now. I can't think of anything actually.

My dad was a lovely man. If I tried to live like him, I'd hope to be kind and loving, enjoy Countdown, dogs, and Johnny Cash. I could do that all of that as a woman though.

How does someone decide that a person is living as a woman for 2 years? Or a man? Is there a criteria or check-list or something? What is it?

IdentifiesAsYoda · 31/07/2017 12:28

Popchyk

Excellent points there

I am also interested to hear about that

I guess it means changing your name, first (unless your name is Robin or Jamie or Sam or Chris)

Dollydotty · 31/07/2017 12:29

Mmm - how would they know I'm LGBT? I did a survey but it was rather poor as the designer didn't understand the issues well enough to be able to ask the right questions.

That exemplifies my point about being a woman, a lesbian or a transsexual. All of which I've been on the end of discrimination for.

If you don't know and understand the issues how can you design an accurate survey?

Dollydotty · 31/07/2017 12:49

Yes I have a view - I did it!

It means changing my appearance but that was after taking HRT whilst presenting as a male. This is the first mistake trangender (not transsexual) people make. Men and women think differently. Women are more sensitive in general to their surroundings and much more able to express their feelings. I soon discovered that avoiding other trans people was essential in order to integrate myself as female, many trans people do not do this. One of my former girlfriends may well be reading this because it was she who encouraged me not to wear makeup, as I didn't need it, and hardly do now. It was also quite easy and important for me to stop thinking as I did in the ways I see women.

The real big issue for me was not clothes but having estrogen in my body, it was much more important than wearing female clothes and still is today. As for surgery I had a take it or leave it attitude, but of course I want to look like and be accepted as female and I am.

For a male born in a womans body it is a lot easier as the effects of testosterone are not there, and it's that which distinguishes many transexual women from men, or even identifies them, along with their behaviour.

Many transgender people have an obsession with their genitals, and getting rid of them or gaining them depending on which way you go in this, (Male> Female or Female> Male) the truth is you, the reader, will not determine my gender based on what is between my legs, other transgender peoples obsession with GRS always mystified me. You will determine my gender based on my behaviour and appearance and you most always do!

We are all different, but I know what I am, I am happy, and although I have legally changed my gender that was the icing on the cake.

Dollydotty · 31/07/2017 13:01

Name change - an interesting subject.

What I did at some point was decide I was going to appear as female in society. I chose a new name, which had absolutely no connection with my previous male identity whatsoever.

This is another common mistake, a lot of people adapt their male name, and it plays straight into the hands of the abuser because they can claim that they mistakenly used your old name as it was so similar - and they will.

As you the reader can see even from the small amount I've written this is a very complex subject, both socially and personally.

Maria Miller and the Women's committee have, in my opinion been misinformed and misled. I did write to them and The Labour party, neither could be bothered to reply.

There are a few of us, transsexual (The correct legal term) people who know what we are about, know the issues, and reasons why people need to be sure about what they are doing since it has consequences, yes I have been sexually assaulted, threatened intimidated by men so I know about those issues too, they are/can be the consequences.

Hope this clears some mysteries up

FreiasBathtub · 31/07/2017 13:55

This is a really great thread, thank you for sharing the article. Depressing to see how under-prepared, under-informed and completely uninterested Maria Miller is. I hope that there's someone in Parliament who will be prepared to raise these questions again if/when a Bill is put to the House... maybe Stella Creasy? Has she ever spoken about these issues?

That BBC article is woeful. Saying that people can currently use facilities based on their gender identity DIRECTLY UNDERNEATH a quote from the EHRC which says this should only happen 'where a transsexual person is visually and for all practical purposes indistinguishable from someone of their preferred gender' i.e. no beards or penises in the Ladies. Completely downplays the magnitude of the proposed changes.

IndominusRex · 31/07/2017 14:22

The only MP who has spoken out is Caroline Flint. All the others are towing the line.

OP posts:
Dollydotty · 31/07/2017 14:47

My MP will be for one as all these issues I have discussed with her, as well as giving her the legal side and of course your comments on here, which she I hope will read.

There are two legal issues here, and three if we include the Human Rights Act which I will leave aside for the time being.

The 2004 Gender Recognition Act was brought about by a case taken to the European Court of Justice, if you care to read the defence presented by The then Labour Government you will see just how weak their arguments were against the appellants case, they were pathetic and would not have held water to anyone with any common sense.

Up until then the only legal protection was an amendment to the then Sex Discrimination Act. The 2004 Gender Recognition Act (GRA) is not a complicated piece of legislation and I would urge you read it, or better still the advice given out by The Gender Recognition Panel which says roughly the same thing.

In 2010 all existing equality legislation covering 9 areas (The 9 protected characteristics) was brought into one Act. The 2010 Equality Act. I would not encourage you to go off and read it but instead find and download the "Services and public functions and associations Statutory Code of Practice" (SCSCP) published in 2000 written by the dear old EHRC (in my opinion a complete waste of space).

In the legislation and SCSCP you will not find one word of transgender - what a surprise! what you will find is the word transsexual. There is only 1 place you will find the word transgender, unless they have removed it, and that is the Statutory Guidance to Employers.

The in word on the EHRC site until recently was transgender, suddenly it's become trans - do we blow with the wind or what? But legislation is clear, the correct legal term for people like me is transsexual. So the seeds of confusion are being sown already and you the public and being baffled by - guess what?

In The STATUTORY (Yes it's law) guidance what it says is clear section 2.17..... people who are proposing to undergo, are undergoing, or have undergone a process to reassign their sex by changing physiological or other attributes of sex have the protected characteristic of gender reassignment.

It then goes on under section2.20, 2.23 and 2.24 which justify what the interviewer state regarding the two examples she give where they claim they are transsexual.

How many of you knew about this? not many!

In my opinion, which is of course just mine, there are issues with all of this and have been since it was written in 2011.

Prior to the 2010 Act the Sex Discrimination Act was in force and that did require that people like me had a medical diagnosis, which I did and passed easily, with a note from my psychiatrist saying I was/am transsexual.

I will repeat what I said earlier, wearing female clothes does not make you female. Additionally sex is something people engage in, gender is something that determines we are male or female.

velourvoyageur · 31/07/2017 15:38

When she says 'it's difficult', she means it's difficult to find a pro-trans response to it. Because she knows that those girls who are losing to male competitors are absolutely right to be pissed off.

I've emailed the Times, thanking them for the article & asking for the feedback to be sent to JT.

MM is not doing her job properly. She is not giving anyone except those who agree with what's already been decided a fair hearing.

Tangent - in my opinion, transwomen wearing a dress and makeup are male just as much as Danielle Muscato is male. I don't know why DM gets so much stick for not transitioning - this attitude legitimises transitioning as a step on the way to being a woman. It's not a step. Am I missing something?

velourvoyageur · 31/07/2017 15:58

Dotty thanks for your informative post.
You say that gender makes you female, but clothes which are marketed to women do not. However, for me, clothes are a part of gender. Clothing choice is artificially highly gendered, to the point where we cannot avoid making gendered choices unless we go around wearing bin bags. I would say that these choices are imposed on us from birth rather than inspired by some innate consciousness of 'this is the right choice for me'. Gender is not made up only of clothes, but of lots of comparable physical elements which are in turn informed by attitudes and societal pressures. May I ask, if gender is not inextricably tied to outward appearance (e.g. clothes), why almost without exception all transwomen will dress like women are expected to, grow their hair long & adopt consumer choices which are exclusively marketed to women (and say that they do this because they are transgender)?

IdentifiesAsYoda · 31/07/2017 16:14

Velour and Dotty

I hope that I don't insult when I say this, but when you analyse what women wear on a casual basis they are not very gendered except in subtle matters of shape (sometimes colour), so I'd imagine M to F transgender people would need to wear something extra feminine in order to 'pass'

Example: today, and most days I (a woman) am wearing trainers, chinos and a white T shirt. I have short hair and wear very small stud earrings. No-one's going to choose to wear those things in order to look more like a woman. But look like a woman, and move like a woman I do.

I am also taking HRT Grin now because of the perimenopause

I don't really know what point I'm making really...

velourvoyageur · 31/07/2017 16:16

Men and women think differently. Women are more sensitive in general to their surroundings and much more able to express their feelings.

You must know that this is a very inflammatory thing to post on a Women's Rights board. I do not recognise this as a female attribute at all.

the truth is you, the reader, will not determine my gender based on what is between my legs, other transgender peoples obsession with GRS always mystified me. You will determine my gender based on my behaviour and appearance and you most always do!

I don't spend any time determining someone's gender, as it is such a narrow, prescriptive way of classifying people that it is of little use to me. Beyond knowing the gender one has been assigned at birth and the kind of education this presumes, a person is so much more than a collection of inflexible assumptions about how a person will live their life based on sex predjuce. The only time an individual's gender will have an impact on me, going by my own experience of biological men's behaviour towards women as well as the published statistics, is when I am in a potentially unsafe situation, and by that of course I mean if the person involved is biologically male and has been treated as a little boy during his childhood.

IdentifiesAsYoda · 31/07/2017 16:19

I have two sons. It's my mission in life to ensure they are able to express their feelings and bloody well listen to people expressing theirs. Doing well so far.

Dollydotty · 31/07/2017 16:19

Hello velourvoyageur,

I don't believe I said what you think I said, having estrogen in me is the most important, today I am in jeans and a stringy top, tomorrow I could be in a boiler suit, on the weekend I was in a dress and out for a meal with my partner.

I know how many others (transgender) think and operate - that is thinking like a man! about how a woman should be which is why they dress/behave like they do.

I am not a stereo typical transwoman, I don't believe that women should be limited by stereotypes, women can be whatever they want to be despite men thinking they should be "AT HOME" or should not do what men do, because "women don't do that".

The attitudes prevalent in society have kept the lid on the glass ceiling for far too long.

Hope that clarifies me as a person.

Dollydotty · 31/07/2017 16:22

velourvoyageur

You are entitled to your views as is everyone else in this world. If you don't agree that's quite Ok by me.

IdentifiesAsYoda · 31/07/2017 16:22

Dolly

So what I can't help wondering ( And I won't be able to listen to your answer because I'm off out - and you don't need to answer, actually) is what went wrong that you were not able to be that person, yourself, as a boy/man.

AssassinatedBeauty · 31/07/2017 16:25

What velourvoyager put was a direct and accurate quote. Are you saying that you didn't mean to write that?

Men thinking that women have different brains and think differently is part of the problem, and I'm surprised that you think this is the case. There's no evidence for it.

velourvoyageur · 31/07/2017 16:27

Yoda I do take your point about choosing to appear 'hyperfeminine' to counteract the effect of having less feminine features. But why is 'passing' important if being transgender is not about appearance? I get the feeling I'm missing something and I sincerely would like to understand :)
And then, if this is not the case, and (referring to something someone else explained to me) transmen and -women need to pass in order to escape abuse, there is something fundamentally wrong with the public, and the onus should be on us to change and behave normally when we see someone whose sex and gender don't seem to match (according to the restrictive boundaries of gender).

In using the term 'feminine', I would say it refers to secondary sex characteristics present in biological women (higher voices, smaller hands etc).

Dollydotty · 31/07/2017 16:27

IdentifiesAsYoda

Good your children can listen to as well as express themselves, I think I've already pointed out that clothes are not necessarily a big issue for me, neither is makeup.

Other women may feel differently, I am sure they do, depends on time circumstance and company.

I got over the "what you wear makes you a women" nonsense years ago.

Dollydotty · 31/07/2017 16:31

I couldn't resist agreeing with this! Yes it does make a huge difference, but changing the GRA will not alter this one bit.

""transmen and -women need to pass in order to escape abuse, there is something fundamentally wrong with the public, and the onus should be on us to change and behave normally when we see someone whose sex and gender don't seem to match (according to the restrictive boundaries of gender).""

velourvoyageur · 31/07/2017 16:31

Dolly
Thank you for your reply.
My argument is rather that clothes are part of gender, and you are saying that gender is what makes you a woman. So, using my reasoning, what you are saying isn't logical.

Obviously I'm being more than a little disengenuous here, as we clearly have very different ideas about what gender is.

Dollydotty · 31/07/2017 16:38

velourvoyageur

Women can wear what they like, doesn't change things one iota. Plenty of lesbians look and dress like men, if that's possible? doesn't change the fact they still are women.

Anyway I am not here to enter into prolonged contentious debates about specific and minute details, designed to make personal attacks on me, which can be argued about until the end of the world, rather to highlight the issues of any Changes to the GRA and its harm to women.
END of DISCUSSION

velourvoyageur · 31/07/2017 16:43

No, I can certainly see that you're not here to participate in debate, I'm with you there.

There have been no personal attacks on you, by the way. I however find this: END of DISCUSSION - rude :)

Swipe left for the next trending thread