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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminisms & Porn Project

44 replies

Mixcloud · 13/03/2017 09:32

For any London-based, feminist MNers who use porn (broad definition here to include adults films, erotic literature, fan-fiction etc) and have thoughts/feelings/experiences they'd like to share... I'm doing some research on this and would love to chat if you're able and willing

Especially keen to hear from people who consider themselves to be 'anti-porn', come from a BME background, have a disability, and/or those without a university degree, as I want to do my darndest to make sure all kinds of voices are heard. All welcome though, of course :)

PM me if you'd be up for an interview, would like more info, or just want to chat (I love discussing these topics with other feminists, even if it's not related to my PhD studies) If it's not for you, please consider sharing with someone who you think might be interested. Thanks!

OP posts:
CruellaDeVilsEvilSister · 15/03/2017 08:29

But I don't get your insistence that all written porn involves violence, Cruella.

Sorry Hedgehog, where have I insisted that? I said that there was a large volume of writing where sex and violence were presented hand in hand. I never said that all written porn involves violence, let alone insisted on it. In fact in my post above I said on the subject of misogynistic written porn - 'No I think that that kind of misogynistic language is all too applicable to the vast majority of what is called 'erotica' on the internet. I'm not saying that there isn't a section of erotica somewhere that doesn't fall into that category. I'm sure there is.'

But I'm still not seeing the problem with writing about consensual, non violent sex.
There is nothing wrong with that but that's not what the majority of online porn depicts. I think that's what I'm trying to say. So you end up with the same argument that proponents of feminist porn use that there's nothing inherently wrong with the filming of sex and that it's possible to show sex in a positive way. That might be right. It might even exist already, but that's not the majority of online porn. It's not the majority of written porn either in my opinion.

HelenDenver · 15/03/2017 08:41

"It's not the majority of written porn either in my opinion."

But for any one piece of written erotica, you can see if it is violent etc (YMMV as to where the line is drawn, of course)

For any given piece of filmed porn, it isn't possible to know if consent is real or simulated. Hence no piece of filmed porn, other than that I make myself or possibly a person I know well enough to judge has made, can be free of that possibility.

HelenDenver · 15/03/2017 08:54

Have you seen the david Tennant/Catherine Tate tribute to RTD, Tardis to the tune of "Let's Do It"?

CruellaDeVilsEvilSister · 15/03/2017 09:30

Thinking about it I think there's a real marked difference between how people view visual media and written media isn't there? At present it's reasonably non-controversial to say that filmed pornography comes with a lot of negative effects, outside of the obvious issue of consent. We accept quite readily that visual porn is effecting young peoples attitudes towards sex, that it is effecting male sexual performance, that it is even rewiring brains (porn addiction). However, on the other hand we simultaneously seem to accept that written porn has none of these effects. This is despite the fact that written porn can depict things outside the scope of filmed porn. You can't, for example, you can't film a porn scene is which a women is gang-fucked and then tortured and dismembered. You can write about it at length though. How many 'snuff porn' stories would you need to read before it had the kind of effects of visual porn? Do we think you could read any number of them and maintain a healthy sexuality?

There's a sort of elevation of the power of visual media to corrupt.

Yes, Helen, I take your point that you can police your personal use of written porn in a way that you can't with filmed porn. If you don't mind my asking would you, for example, use a pay-for site that contained violent written porn alongside your consensual written porn or would you be uncomfortable with supporting that?

HelenDenver · 15/03/2017 09:52

Mmm. Good question.

I think I would be uncomfortable with it.

CruellaDeVilsEvilSister · 15/03/2017 10:14

And if an author wrote some stories that were all strictly consensual but also maybe liked to occasionally write rape porn would you be happy supporting that author? How much research would you do an any author?

Sorry, you don't have to answer any of these questions and I don't won't you to feel that I'm getting at you personally. These questions are for anyone reading. I'm just wondering how much people who consume written porn look into these things?

M0stlyBowlingHedgehog · 15/03/2017 15:40

(Thanks Helen - I will definitely look that up. I once wrote a parody fanfic in which I used the verses of Barry and Freda as prompts!)

Cruella - I don't think it's quite what you meant, because it isn't a subscription service, but I write and read stuff on Archive of Our Own, which is a fanfiction site funded entirely from user donations (unlike the Fanfiction site, which is funded by advertisements). Fanfiction sites are culturally interesting in that they are predominantly female spaces - majority women writers, writing for a majority female audience (albeit women who live in the real world, surrounded by all-pervasive male sexuality and male sexual violence). AO3 is not a porn site - there's all sorts of stuff on there - but it undoubtedly has a lot of porn on it. It has a system of age ratings and "tags", i.e. descriptors telling you what to expect. Thus anything - whether straightforward missionary position sex through to some pretty eyewatering stuff - is labelled upfront so you know what to avoid (or conversely what to search for). Insofar as it's funded by users, I suppose it's "paid for", and insofar as it has some fairly hardcore stuff, I suppose it meets your criterion of sharing space. So yes, I do use such a site, and have no qualms about it because it's written words - figments of someone's imagination.

I suppose the moral issues I see coming up are:
Are real people harmed? - Not in the case of words.
Does this encourage people to engage in sexual violence? - In the case of a fanfic site, no, I don't think so.
Does this normalise sexual violence? - Again, no, I think, because it can be seen in context as a minority niche interest among a lot of more normal interests. (Some fandoms seem to attract more kinky stuff than others, mind you.)
Is the stuff on there going to trigger people who've been victims of sexual violence? - No, not if it's tagged correctly, and it generally is.
Does it contribute to rape culture, by making rape seem like an acceptable part of the spectrum of normal sexuality? I don't think it does. It is presented as a fantasy, and is counterbalanced by enough (the majority of stories) where normal sex is seen as healthy and rape is seen for the act of violence it is.

But I have spent a long time thinking about (and talking to writers about) why some women write fantasies which eroticise rape. (Thanks to the AO3 tagging system these are fairly easy to avoid, fortunately). The reasons are multiple and complicated, I think, and it's certainly not a straightforward causal step from "woman A has written a rape fic read by women B, C, D and E, therefore man X will think it's a good idea to go out and rape women because some women like that sort of story."

So here's a list of possible reasons why women write rape fantasies (not complete, partial, my own speculations, possibly patronising because I hate rape fics and really can't get my head round why anyone would want to write them).

  1. Sexual repression. Not much of a thing in Western Europe, but there are (having talked at length to American women about this) still very socially conservative tracts of middle America where women are brought up to think of sex as dirty, and thus find as adults that the only way they can "let go" is to imagine themselves being overpowered.
  1. Society-wide Stockholm syndrome. Male sexual violence is ubiquitous, so some women deal with the cognitive dissonance caused by the threat of it by internalising it and eroticising it - de-fanging their worst fears by re-imagining it as something that (in the right circumstances, with the right devilishly handsome man) they might enjoy.
  1. Rape survivors dealing with trauma. Some rape survivors find writing a useful form of DIY therapy - they get to re-write the narrative, but this time, because they are the author, they are in control. They get to decide how far it goes, or when it stops, or whether there is any sort of closure.
  1. The all-pervasive nature of male porn. Some women have watched so much male-oriented violent porn they have genuinely internalised the belief that sexual violence can be erotic.
  1. They have abusive tendencies themselves and are infact identifying with the rapist rather than the victim (this is a horrible one, and a very minority one, but I would say it does exist).
  1. They are from incredibly patriarchal societies and don't realise rape is wrong. (Remember fanfic is a world-wide phenomenon). I had an exchange of messages with one young woman in the far East about this - I told her she was writing a rape fic, she claimed she wasn't and that I was naive about "what men are like". In her world, the story she was telling was of a man who fancied the woman so much (a compliment in her mind) that he couldn't help himself, but as the story developed, he would learn to love her and develop respect for her. Screwed up thinking, but a product of the society in which she lived.
  1. Authorial stupidity. Our writer has Fred and Bertha as her OTP ("one true pairing"). She knows (because she's the writer in control of the plot) that Fred and Bertha are meant for one another. She knows that Fred fancies Bertha, and knows that Bertha reciprocates. She knows that if Fred makes a move on Bertha, Bertha is going to say "yes please." So (and this is where the authorial stupidity enters the story) she has Fred initiate sex while Bertha is asleep. Because the author can't make the imaginative leap to realise that while she, the author, knows Bertha wants it, and Bertha knows Bertha wants it, at this stage in the story Fred does not know that Bertha wants it, and is therefore committing sexual assault.
HelenDenver · 15/03/2017 17:01

This is a really interesting discussion.

HelenDenver · 15/03/2017 17:13

"How much research would you do an any author?"

It's an occasional read for me, I don't know many authors. If they blog generally as well as specifically on erotica, you can get a feel for them as people, but we are all words on a screen.

Haven't been on AO3 but if I liked writing on something like that, I might see what else the author had posted on any talk forum or comments.

So not much ahead, probably. But then, as your perception of the harm is different to mine, that's not too surprising.

Whereas if I was to look for a way in which I could watch filmed porn (which I am not trying to do!), I would need to do a lot of research on the director, performers etc, because the harm if I am wrong is huge.

I'm thinking this through as I type, so may not be consistent.

I watched The Fall, for example; I know plenty of people stopped watching it because it "prettified" sexually-motivated murder and I understand that position. It improved on that front in the latter series, and I probably would have stopped if it didn't.

CruellaDeVilsEvilSister · 15/03/2017 17:15

Agreed. Thanks Hedgehog It sounds like quite a niche site, but interesting to hear about.

almondpudding · 15/03/2017 17:29

A03 isn't a niche site though, I'd it?

I assumed it was the largest written erotica site. Most written erotica is surely written by and for women? Is there a similarly large written erotica site used by men?

That's why the written erotica is often violent in the way filmed porn frequently is seems untrue to me

M0stlyBowlingHedgehog · 15/03/2017 17:31

AO3 isn't that niche, I would say - I just checked the wikipedia entry, and as of 2016 it had over 2000 000 works and over 750 000 users.

The wiki article here has some interesting stuff I didn't know about it - for instance that it was started as a women's response to a predominantly male attempt to take over and monetize the sites serving fanfiction. I knew it was open source and coded by its users (at least one of whom is a mumsnetter - not me, incidentally!)

Helen - do you have a link to the Catherine Tate/ David Tennant tribute? If not, no worries, I'll try google.

M0stlyBowlingHedgehog · 15/03/2017 18:01

Actually, thinking some more about "sharing space" - what do we think of other books published by Penguin (Fifty Shades) or Picador (American Psycho)? Is it the same thing as being on the same website? If not, why not? It's an argument that has been advanced recently - the Chicago Review of Books decided to not to review any books by any authors published by Simon and Schuster in protest against them giving Milo Yiannopoulis a book deal (I think he's the scum of the earth, btw, but I also think the Chicago Review of Books is way wrong on this one).

HelenDenver · 15/03/2017 18:37

m.youtube.com/watch?v=giaMRyn47Xg

CruellaDeVilsEvilSister · 15/03/2017 19:19

Sorry Hedgehog I thought you had described it a a niche site yourself but I've mis- read your post. Apologies. I don't know the site.

M0stlyBowlingHedgehog · 15/03/2017 19:51

Oooh, thank you Helen, that's brill.

Don't worry, Cruella- no offence taken. AO3 is niche, not in terms of size, but in terms of being a slighly off-beat hobby to have and one that most of its practioners don't talk about in general conversation, not because the porn is embarrassing, but because the fanfic is!

Mixcloud · 16/03/2017 12:55

@picklemepopcorn In answer to your question, I'm aware that the vast majority of my respondents so far self-define as 'pro-porn'. I'd like to make sure a range of feminist voices are represented in the study. It's been great to see the discussion on here develop, around the difference between written and filmed porn. If anybody who, themself, uses either of these would be willing to chat more about some of these topics, please do send me a message.

OP posts:
VestalVirgin · 16/03/2017 16:45

Don't worry, Cruella- no offence taken. AO3 is niche, not in terms of size, but in terms of being a slighly off-beat hobby to have and one that most of its practioners don't talk about in general conversation, not because the porn is embarrassing, but because the fanfic is!

Haha, yes.

It is not at all a niche site when looking at fanfiction - it is one of the largest international sites for fanfic.

But speaking of the internet as whole, it probably is.

I can't really make a judgement of what most literary erotica out there is like, but in fanfic, sex is usually not shown outside of the context of a relationship. Even those who write just small erotic scenes do so in the context of an original work where those two characters are usually a couple and/or have some kind of relationship. (Granted, sometimes they are enemies, but there's always some social dynamic there.)

HelenDenver · 16/03/2017 17:49

"but there's always some social dynamic there."

Good point, VV.

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