What do 'butch' mean to you as a feminist (re. Jack Monroe)?

[JeanneDeMontbaston]

A friend just sent me the link to this piece: www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/oct/29/binary-gender-feminism-transgender-womens-award

It's Monroe explaining how they understand gender, and much of it strikes me as pretty nuanced and very understandable. So I wondered about something that might be a side note - but can we discuss it?

Monroe explains:

I just want to be myself. Flatter-chested, a bit stronger in the arms and shoulders, and able to pass for a “young man” on public transport. I could still do that as a butch lesbian, but it doesn’t fit.

I feel horribly rude, but I read that and wondered what she was getting at - because she isn't, to my understanding, someone who's ever been 'butch'. I honestly can't tell if she thinks that she is butch, or if she is saying that she had two options - either to be trans or to be butch - and she dismissed the second one because it felt wrong.

I wondered about all this, because on MN FWR I keep seeing people say they've tested out as 'masculine' on tests, or that they are not especially 'girly', or whatever. So, I suppose there are lots of ways to define women who are not 'gender conforming'.

But, would you think of 'butch' as meaning only 'a woman who seems masculine'? Do you think 'butch' women are identifiable with men?

A butch lesbian identify stands on its own merits. We should recognise the efforts of those who created it.

To answer your original question.

A butch woman is not the same thing as a masculine woman.

There are masculine women who are not butch.

Butch lesbians are a particular sub culture with their own history and political legacy.

almond - no, I disagree strongly with that. A butch woman is not just to do with masculinity, surely? Because the term pre-dates that idea, doesn't it?

Can't women be butch without being 'masculine'?

Yep and teasing out the motivations of those who fully passed as male would be tricky. I doubt they were or wanted to be transmen but we can't ask them. Or divorce it all from the social age.

only -YY, true.

Can you define masculinity Jeanne? I'm not saying that to get into a disagreement, just to work out if we're talking at cross purposes and mean different things.

I'm not sure what you are disagreeing with? That women can be masculine? That some masculine women are not butch?

Masculinity is a social construct - it's the cultural set of values and practices associated with the male gender. It is deeply damaging, because 'masculinity', at least in the West, it closely linked with misogyny, violence, control, and lack of emotion. It is not healthy for men or women.

This is the best definition I know, for this context - but, if you are looking for a fuller definition, Cordelia Fine explains it well in her book, which is pretty accessible.

As I said in my OP, what I'm thinking about is the difference between being 'butch' and being 'masculine'.

Okay.

I think then I would say that there was a sphere of cultural activities that was considered to be appropriate only for men.

Throughout the twentieth century (and before) women found ways of accessing those activities and transforming them culturally by separating them from ideological issues of dominance, coercion and hierarchy.

One subculture that did that was butch lesbians.

And I mean that they transformed them culturally when done by women, within a culture unique to women. That transformation didn't neccesarily change the same activity when done by men.

Well, yes, there has been - and continues to be - a sphere of cultural activities open only to men.

Isn't this a subset of patriarchy?

I love that reading of butch lesbians. But increasingly, there seems to be a move towards saying that this is all really masculinity, and a feeling that anything women do that steps outside traditional feminine roles, is identifying with and valorising masculinity.

I just don't know really what she means, really I don't give a shit as people are all sorts or odd in many ways. what bugs me a it is I am pretty masculine in many wAys, I love exams, motorbikes, arguments, grow muscle and am quite dominant in a few different ways. I am hetro and a woman who has never struggled with self image or struggled to attract male partners who loved me and my shoulders, short hair and bench pressing ability. Who gives a shit or needs a label, women are different... More different than Jack's comments make me feel.

I think it comes back to what Greer said to Kirsty Wark. Women have never been allowed to find out what it means to be a woman. I think that many twentieth century identities were about women only sub cultures exploring what it meant to be a woman.

Butch is not about wanting to be a man or hierarchical behaviours. It is about women's exploration of culture.

The issue of people hating feminine women is a complex one. I mean some things that step outside of feminine gender roles are about valorising masculinity. There was a time when huge numbers of parents would not let children play with toy guns. I don't hear that anymore. Violence and hierarchies are back in fashion. Masculinity is fashionable.

Only just catching up with this and dashing off to work, but just wanted to say I love 80s vintage feminists! They are totally ace and I find often much more direct and to the point than my 20s/30s generation who can be a bit 'OH BUT WHAT ABOUT TEH MENZ?' (Not all of them of course! I know loads of fantastic 30-something feminists too.)

Actually one of my favourite things about feminist conferences (have just been to Feminism in London) is the age mix. Really refreshing and stimulating.

Many apologies for any accidental offence caused.

Irene , I was at FIL AS well. Wasn't it great.

Thanks Irene no problem. As I said immediately, I was grumpy and mis-reacting/over reacting. I was reading some Twitter stuff about the "mistakes" of 2nd wave feminism while doing a simulatenously finicky & boring job online against a deadline, and read "vintage" as "old", rather than "of the period" and thought "Oh hell not another slagging off of older women."

But wait till you get to your mid-fifties and people start to "other" you as "from the past." It's interesting ...

I don't think of the 80s as too far back in the past. you'll realise this when you're in your 50s

But that irritation, and being "othered" and the general fuss re Professor Greer and the undisguised wish by some that these old women should get out of the way (not on this thread) made me reflect on my experiences as a university student in the late 70s/80s, getting into organised feminism - I looked up to the women half a generation or a generation ahead of me. They were my intellectual "mothers" if you like - they seemed to have a lot more sorted out than I did. There was also a lot of stuff about at the wisdom of women, and the increasing power of older women. It's sad (or more powerful active adjectives there) that this is not a feature of some current feminisms. I honestly don't think I thought "Get out of the wy old woman, we're in the 80s now" I could see what they'd done, and wished I could be half so activist & determined & wise

And apologies to all for being so off-topic.

As a straight woman coming of feminist age in the late 70s, and at university in the late 70s /early 80s, I saw the 'butch' as a dominant visual identity and also behaviourial identity for out lesbians. But in the 80s "greed is good" era, the idea of the "lipstick lesbian" emerged. Which when you think about it, was quite a quiet revolution - that lesbians were just normal women really, and could look like anyone.

In pop. culture, I thought Lucy Worsley (now there's a girl crush) gave an interesting history of the masculine-looking lesbian in her recent television series on romance.

And then there's the longer history of many different kinds of women (straight gay & whatever) cross-dressing for all sorts of reasons. Often to join the army!

It's sad (or more powerful active adjectives there) that this is not a feature of some current feminisms.

Yes, indeed. I'm in my 60s and my work involves the intersection of ageism and sexism. Perhaps a discussion for another day, but one that needs doing.

As an American, I was not familiar with Jack Monroe, but I am following this discussion with interest.

I never really understood what "butch" means, but from butch lesbians I have talked to ... it seems to mean a gender-non-conforming woman who maybe likes to act protectively towards "femme" lesbians.

If someone used the word for someone who is not a lesbian, I might challenge that, but otherwise, my idea of what it actually means is too fuzzy to really make a statement.

As for that woman ... I understand why she wants a mastectomy, and if I had larger breasts I would not feel bad about getting them reduced, either. Being a woman in patriarchy is hard, and having big breasts makes it even harder because, aside from back pain issues, men notice and comment and catcall.

I also think any woman who wants to look more androgynous has the right to do that and not be kicked out of the women's club.

In general, I don't see any reason to call women who transition "traitors". If they do not participate in misogyny themselves, that is. (And that is often done by handmaidens who perform femininity, too)

Most women routinely use tactics to protect themselves from male violence that do not reduce the absolute amount of male violence, but just shift the burden of it to other women. (I.e. "Make sure he rapes the other girl" things like not walking home alone at night, etc.) It is not especially heroic, but it is very understandable.

Getting surgery to appear more male-ish is just another way of doing that.

Very, very at those of you who made it to FiL. I wish I could have been there.

blackbirds - ooh, I'll check out Lucy Worsley's piece, then.

I think the history of women cross-dressing is really fascinating - I love all those pictures of late Victorian women in men's suits. They look amazing but it's also really interesting to realise we can never know what they thought about it all - were they just 'dressing up' for a fun picture? Were they using that as an excuse? Did they see it as sexy or did it just represent freedom from being 'feminine'? Etc.

vestal - YY, agree with you both on the breast reduction and on looking androgynous and still being a woman, absolutely.

Who called women who transition 'traitors'? I can't see the post on the thread.

But, I think if I understand Monroe correctly, they're not getting that surgery just in order to (eg) avoid misogyny. It is a bit of a 'throw in the kitchen sink' argument, but reading other things, it looks as if those are the justifications around why being a woman is hard rather than the reasons for identifying as trans, for Monroe.

Jeanne, I read parts of the linked article, and I think it was in there.

I don't really get what exactly Monroe says they do (only skipped the linked article and found it confusing), but I think many, many women who identify as agender or male just cannot take the misogyny anymore, even though that's not something they are consciously aware of.

I mean, it's a constant cognitive dissonance. You know yourself to be human and a woman, but are constantly bombarded with the message that women are not human.

And transwomen are confusing, too. I mean, if you get constantly told by them that they have a strong "feeling" they are women, and you yourself never feel anything like that ... it is easy to come to the conclusion that maybe you are just not a "real" woman ... whatever that may be.

Maybe I'll read the article again tomorrow. It's late and I am tired and probably not good at comprehending texts just now.

I agree with vestal that Jack should still be able to join in with any women's activity, group, competition etc.

I also agree it is just a way of handling misogyny, and women need to find their own coping mechanisms.

But dd breasts are completely normal. They're not particularly large or unwieldy as she puts it. Their size wouldn't be considered a medical reason for a breast reduction. And saying that about breasts of that size is saying something about women's bodies beyond her own.

The problem also arises that her comments about breasts are made in an explanation about her personality traits, as if the kind of breasts a woman has a reflection or symbol of her personality. It is so damaging to be promoting that idea, and even more damaging to claim it as feminism.

All this trans stuff cropping up has made me start looking for any positive female role models as I have teenagers in the house. I'm going to make it more of a priority to include positive body images in that. I felt relieved to watch Sandra Bullock in Gravity because it was a break from all the misogyny of the trans stuff and ageism towards Greer.

But lesbian culture. It's always been one of the coolest parts of women's culture, butch or otherwise.

I also think any woman who wants to look more androgynous has the right to do that and not be kicked out of the women's club

I've usually had long hair (easier to look after, hairdresser once a year instead of every 4 weeks) and prefer dresses (freer movement). In the late 70s early 80s, in organised feminist groups, I was sometimes called out on that - conforming to stereotypical gender roles.

It seems to me that a longer view is that it's still hard to get away from an obsession with how women present their bodies in public.

Jeanne the Lucy Worsley programme is on the iPlayer I think: A Very British Romance It's the 3rd ep

The problem also arises that her comments about breasts are made in an explanation about her personality traits, as if the kind of breasts a woman has a reflection or symbol of her personality. It is so damaging to be promoting that idea, and even more damaging to claim it as feminism.

Absolutely. I mean, one could phrase that differently - namely, say that society as such links breast size to personality, and that it is easier to change her breasts than to fight that.

Men do somehow assume that a woman with large breasts wants to hear stupid comments about them, (or they make them anyway), and that's a hell of a problem for any shy, quiet woman whose personality just isn't equipped to dealing with all that bullshit.

But there's no excuse for promoting that bullshit as truth. It's the same with trans, though ... I don't think I have ever heard/read someone who wants "gender reassignment surgery" say: "I just didn't feel like dealing with all the homophobia I would get as gay man who likes to wear pretty dresses, so I decided to pretend to be a woman."

Such sentiments are usually only uttered by de-transitioners in retrospect.

"But, would you think of 'butch' as meaning only 'a woman who seems masculine'? Do you think 'butch' women are identifiable with men?"
I think of myself as butch, and so does my partner, which is slightly unusual based on the history of the butch-femme dynamic in lesbian relationships. But my current understanding of butch is based on it being a part of lesbian history and culture. I think it often gets mistaken for a women being masculine (and hence butch-femme being some sort of 'copy' of stereotypical heterosexual relationships).

I don't think it is, and I reject the word masculine. I think of it in terms of women who refuse to do the whole femininity scenario (in dress, in attitudes, in behaviours), and unfortunately in our (still) very binary society, if you ain't feminine you get labelled as masculine!

Just to give a practical example, we both typically have short hair, no make-up, and wear just normal casual clothes. Yet that is enough, and far enough from typical femininity, for both of us to elicit double-takes when going into public loos, either from women behind us double-checking the signs, or blokes shouting out 'wrong one mate!'. Just that 'masculine' seems to be the default if you're not obviously feminine, just as males/men are often seen as the default human.

I get really annoyed by this frequent mis-understanding, because it erases lesbian history and butch as a part of lesbian history, and reduces us all to poor copies of straight stereotypical couples, and butches as somehow poor copies of males who should just bite the bullet and transition! A comment that is frequently made nowadays about non-feminine lesbians, and especially about non-feminine lesbians such as Sheila Jeffreys when they write books that are critical of current beliefs as regards gender.