Adultery and feminism?

[Fuzzywuzzyhaslonghair]

Been mulling this over and was hoping for some objective input...

DH had one night of sexual abandon with a girl who acts as a consultant for his firm. He did not tell me, I found out. I had met the girl in passing one night while holding a screaming baby and tantrumic toddler.

She knew she would come across me again in the future, albeit always in passing every so often.

She said before having sex with DH that she did not want to know his "position" or reasons for / details around wanting to have sec with her (eg open relationship or not etc etc).
She maintains she is a feminist to all and sundry in her daily life.

Can you call yourself a feminist and act like this? Am I just putting feminists on a pedestal? Is this just related to feminism and having choices about how to conduct oneself however the hell one pleases as a woman?
I would love to ask her, but I guess this is the next best thing.

She doesn't know I know.

[HagOtheNorth]

She probably felt that she wanted a one-night stand and took it, making it a feminist action because she made her choice and wasn't interested in a relationship, just a shag.

'Is this just related to feminism and having choices about how to conduct oneself however the hell one pleases as a woman?

Yes, I think she'd probably rationalise it like that. That the choice was also his, and if he'd wanted to stay faithful, then he should have, but that he was fully consenting. Feminists shouldn't be held to higher standards than other people is often said, and in reality the adultery was on his part, unless she's also married.
Why did you call her a girl? Is she so much younger than you and your husband? Do you think that he coerced her or put undue pressure on her to have sex with him?

[HagOtheNorth]

Basil, I've always seen choice feminism as a more individualist approach.

[Vivacia]

I thought that Choice Feminism meant that a choice made by a woman is by definition a feminist choice. My interpretation of the earlier discussion was that saying the opposite of this - just because a woman makes a choice, doesn't make it a feminist choice and, a step further, just because a feminist makes a choice, doesn't make a feminist choice.

Ask it's not your shorthand that offends me but your comments such as, if you're into choosy-choice feminism, then chances are you're not going to have a feminist consciousness, are you?

[Vivacia]

She probably felt that she wanted a one-night stand and took it, making it a feminist action...

If I'm a Conservative but think that we should increase taxes, that doesn't make it a Conservative attitude.

[IrenetheQuaint]

"She probably felt that she wanted a one-night stand and took it, making it a feminist action because she made her choice and wasn't interested in a relationship, just a shag."

I don't understand this - I'm a feminist and I've just cleaned the loo, not because I'm a woman but because it needed cleaning and there was no one else to do it. I made a choice to do so, but it wasn't a feminist action.

Agree with your points about the wider context of adultery, Basil. But I still think that even enlightened and politically aware feminists can do stupid things sometimes. (I'm not saying you would potentially shag a married man; I'm 99% sure I wouldn't myself; but humans can be pretty dumb when sex and booze are concerned.)

[AskBasil]

Vivacia, again, sorry to offend but that's my perception.

I'm perfectly happy to be told I'm wrong and why.

What is choice feminism anyway? I'm not aware that it's an actual "thing" - is it? I use it as a shorthand for a vague, feministy type idea in the sense that people who are vaguely sympathetic to it feel that feminism is all about women's choices.

I don't think that's what feminism is about, I think feminism is a political movement for the liberation of women. As such, for me a feminist consciousness would be aware of power dynamics in all interactions between men and women.

I'm not sure what sort of feminist consciousness a "choicy choice" approach to feminism would entail and I guess assume there wouldn't really be one, hence my comments. I can't understand how you can have a feminist consciousness and still go in for shagging a man in a LTR with another woman and I'm not sure what the feminist consciousness that would allow you to do that, would entail. If you say there is one, then I believe you, but you haven't actually said what it is. I think I've explained my consciousness in this situation quite comprehensively.

I'm genuinely not trying to insult anyone or try to wind anyone up, I'm just trying to explore this topic honestly.

[Branleuse]

I dont think its anti feminist.

We could say she was uninterested in the bondage of monogamy and marriage. She didnt change your husband, nor ask him to leave you

I dont think feminism means you are nice to all women

[AskBasil]

Oh yes Irene and I totally agree with you, I'm not idealistic enough to believe that a "feminist consciousness" (whatever our understanding is of that) is enough to inoculate you against weakness, stupidity, selfishness, unkindness, etc., any more than any other consciousness.

I'm also not arguing that only feminism can give you the tools to not make bad decisions. Other belief systems like religion can also give you the tools to recognise a bad decision when you see it and not try to justify it (what you do with the tools is up to you).

I also think all the belief systems in the world don't protect you against low expectations and low self-esteem. I suspect that a woman who has grown up with a father who treats her mother with love and respect, has as an effective tool to make good decisions re men, as a woman with strong religious or political principles.

[DadWasHere]

Its feminist if there is gender disparity in how a woman is treated if she has an affair, compared to a man. For example the threat of being harmed, imprisoned or stoned to death for adultery still hangs over the heads of many women. But in the above context I cant see it as anything but a personal choice unrelated to feminism.

[Vivacia]

I think I've explained my consciousness in this situation quite comprehensively.

Well, I don't think you have. In fact you've left me completely baffled and unsure where to start addressing your points!

I don't think you are on the wind up, and I think we have that in common. I also wonder we're talking at cross-purposes and probably share more than we disagree.

[Amethyst24]

I'm sorry this happened to you, OP.

I think there are feminist issues at play here, in that women seek male attention without regard to the harm it can cause them and other women, and men's sense of entitlement to women's bodies can lead them to make horrible, selfish choices.

[AskBasil]

Hmm. I don't know if I can explain it any better Vivacia but I'll try.

I think (though can't be sure) that my consciousness of all the shit this man must necessarily be throwing at his wife in order to pursue a fling with me, would stop me fancying him and therefore wanting to sleep with him. Or at least stop acting on the fact that in spite of the fact that I perceived him to be unethical and to possibly have a shitty attitude to women (because he has no loyalty or solidarity with the one he actually lives with and may have had children with) I still found him attractive.

I don't know how that differs from what you are arguing would be the feminist consciousness of a "choice" feminist. Branleuse argues that maybe she would reject monogamy etc., & that the responsibility for fidelity lies with him not with her, so that's one interpretation and it's a logical one (I don't know if it's your's). I'd reject that as feminist because it doesn't act in solidarity with other women, it's an individualist consciousness, which for me is not compatible with my feminism, though I accept it's compatible with some others.

I just think it's a bit crap though and as a political proposition, doesn't actually offer women much better than what we already have in patriarchal society. The freedom to screw each other over and make each other's lives unhappier, yay! Join the revolution sister! No thanks, it's not for me. I can see that it is of course a step up from being stoned to death for adultery, but it's not actually a very inspiring rallying cry. I just think we can do better, or at least aspire to.

[AskBasil]

And another thing (breathes) - tbh I think we need to offer an awful lot better because to be a feminist in our society is to be pretty much a weirdo and an outsider and a dodgy all round person, so if you're not going to identify as it, then surely it has to be for something much better, not just marginally better, doesn't it? If not, why bother? Why not just be mainstream and safe? It's a lot easier.

[Jackieharris]

Maybe as a feminist she doesn't believe in the institution of marriage?

Personally I've never "got" sexual possessiveness but I accept I'm in a tiny minority on that one.

I've been in a situation where a married man asked me to go to a hotel with him. I really fancied him but I refused the offer. Was my feminism part of my reasoning? Maybe. Even though I consider the idea that one individual has sexual ownership over another anti-feminist I respect that another woman has signed up to that deal. For me it is more about the potential consequences (stds being passed on & a child who is a half sibling to existing DCs being born out of an encounter) that was the main deterrent.

I don't think it's very feminist behaviour for women who all live under patriarchy together to throw stones at each other over our "choices". (Isn't feminism about acknowledging that our choices under patriarchy are constrained?)

Calling an adult female a girl isn't very feminist. (I still sometimes find myself doing this- it's a hard habit to break!)

Blaming the ow for an affair rather than the married party isn't feminist either.

To the OP, sorry your dh broke his promise to you. He needs to take full responsibility for his actions. I don't think it's going to help you focussing on the ow calling herself a feminist.

[Shallishanti]

a few people have said 'it's purely a personal choice and nothing to do with feminism'
but surely, one of the most important insights 2nd wave feminism gave us is that the personal IS political, and all the observations re economic security and the 'higher value' of a younger woman bear that out
I think AB is right that other perspectives and experiences might also lead one to refrain from acting in a way that could harm another woman (and her children)- but perhaps only a feminist would frame that in terms if solidarity, as that implies a class consciousness.
I also think that age and experience plays a part. I can imagine being 20 something and thinking monogamy was oppressive. But now I'm 50 something I can see that adultery is betrayal and brings misery and pain. also that men will lie, lie, lie starting with 'oh, my marriage is dead anyway...'
etc
of course, NAMALT, fortunately.
Sorry this doesn't help the OP much, as a feminist I'd say the same as any sensible woman, LTB.

[Vivacia]

I think women can only go so far in taking responsibility for a man cheating on his wife.

[Shallishanti]

Of course!
Only the man has responsibility for that
But the OW has responsibility for what SHE does (she isn't cheating on his wife, but she is probably going to hurt her)

[Vivacia]

I think that being an OW is a mistake. I just think it's a mistake that feminists can make.

[Joyfulldeathsquad]

Being a feminist doesn't mean you get to shag other people's husband and have a moral excuse to do so. She sounds very immature.

[shaska]

You can not be into sexual possessiveness and still treat other people respectfully and not mess with people who are monogamous. In fact, in what I know of non-monogamous people, that's a huge part of it.

However, this isn't a question of non-monogamy.

There is a certain type of man who thinks that men are 'naturally' inclined toward cheating, or that they have some extra special right to do so. That position is a feminist issue for me. Women who sleep with attached men... no I don't think that's a question for feminism. All people should be kind to one another. But all people are not. It's not an area where women are or aren't privileged.

[Vivacia]

There is a certain type of man who thinks that men are 'naturally' inclined toward cheating,

I can think of at least one female poster of this parish with the same thinking shaska.

[Yops]

Women who sleep with attached men... no I don't think that's a question for feminism. All people should be kind to one another. But all people are not. It's not an area where women are or aren't privileged.

When you get down to the level of this man and woman who did the deed, how does he exercise privilege and yet she doesn't, assuming both go into it of their own free will? This is a get-out-of-jail card for any woman to do anything, any time, without thought to the consequences of her deeds - 'Sorry I threw your cat in the bin, but it's the patriarchy, dontchaknow!'

[loveareadingthanks]

Feminism used to include an idea of 'sisterhood', which to me doesn't mean you always agree and support each other, but you don't deliberately fuck each other over either. But in my experience, not a lot of women feel that way.(not that I'd deliberately fuck over a man, either).

She gets to do this and still define herself as a feminist. People can define themselves however they like, whether you agree or not.

My ex had an affair with a super-Christian, who works for a church. I'm sure she still thinks she's a good Christian, even though I'd disagree with that. Whatever.

Try not to get hung up on details like this. When the big picture is so painful it's easy to get sidetracked by little things that don't matter that much overall. Your problem is your husband and his infidelity, not whether the OW is a feminist or not.

[almondcakes]

I generally agree with Basil.

Of course we are all human and people behave in ways that don't live up to their personal ideals.

But I don't think that feminism somehow justifies the behaviour.

There are feminists who get into poly relationships, but that involves having adult discussions about the feelings and well being of everyone involved, and considering people other than yourself.

The affair could have serious financial and emotional consequences for the OP and her children, and the OP is in a vulnerable position because she has two very young children. Both of the people in the unfair have harmed the OP, and it was totally unnecessary and avoidable for that to happen.

[YonicScrewdriver]

I don't think anyone is claiming that feminism justifies the OW's behaviour. Some think her behaviour is separate to her feminism.