Adultery and feminism?

[Fuzzywuzzyhaslonghair]

Been mulling this over and was hoping for some objective input...

DH had one night of sexual abandon with a girl who acts as a consultant for his firm. He did not tell me, I found out. I had met the girl in passing one night while holding a screaming baby and tantrumic toddler.

She knew she would come across me again in the future, albeit always in passing every so often.

She said before having sex with DH that she did not want to know his "position" or reasons for / details around wanting to have sec with her (eg open relationship or not etc etc).
She maintains she is a feminist to all and sundry in her daily life.

Can you call yourself a feminist and act like this? Am I just putting feminists on a pedestal? Is this just related to feminism and having choices about how to conduct oneself however the hell one pleases as a woman?
I would love to ask her, but I guess this is the next best thing.

She doesn't know I know.

[dailygrowl]

I don't think her amorality about her sexual conduct / affairs is a kind of feminism. I don't think having a sex with a man you know is married has anything to do with feminism - it just means you have a pretty crap and selfish character. Likewise, men who have affairs with married women are also the same. It doesn't matter what the excuse is - you wait till they are separated or divorced before getting involved. (Also, if you can do that to someone, next time it can just as easily be done to you.)

(I am assuming - I hope I understood you correctly - that you mean she knows that you are the wife of the man she is having an affair with but isn't aware you have found out about them.)

I'm sure you know some really great women who are feminists, but likewise there are feminists out there who are rather more shaky, shall we say, as human beings to be around.

A lot of women nowadays claim to be feminists but are actually pretty hideous to women and nicer to men. That makes them absolutely not feminists. A lot of women I know are feminists, in their attitudes, behaviour and decision-making but have never really proclaimed "I'm a feminist" but simply said "This is the right thing to do" (and a number of men too). A lot of privileged women are clueless and seem to think that feminism is simply about not letting men open doors for you and not wearing skirts or pink - superficial things - and aren't at all aware that many women and girls around the world and in the UK live in situations that are truly unfair and unequal simply because they are female.

So sorry about your husband's cheating, OP. Hope you are getting lots of support and decent advice about what's best to do for yourself and your kids (the Relationships section has some good advice if you feel you want to look there). Cheating is a rotten thing to do to a spouse.

[HazleNutt]

she did not want to know his "position" or reasons for / details around wanting to have sec with her (eg open relationship or not etc etc).

Yes, I think that's a feminist choice - to make men take responsibility for their own actions, choices and promise-keeping, and not treat women as some kind of guards of men's morality and behaviour.

[maliaki]

I don't think cheating makes you feminist or antifeminist- it just means you did something shitty and makes you an arseholes.

I also think it's not fmeinist/antifeminist to be the other person in a relationship, again you're just a self absorbed arsehole.

I think it's not feminist to blame to other person, often it is the other person whose blamed as a 'homewrecker'- especially if they are the OW. The cheaters choose to do as they selfishly wish and would shag someone if they have the chance too, if the OW said no they could still easily go and find someone else.

I still class people who knowingly shag those in a relationship as arseholes though, not because they are responsible or homewreckers but because they're choosing to do something they know could hurt someone else. They just aren't anywhere close to as big an arsehole as the cheater- unless you're related to the cheater's OH or friends with them, in which case imo you are.

That's just my opinion though.

[YonicScrewdriver]

How are you, OP? Is the thread helpful?

[OllyBJolly]

Interesting thread. I've been in your situation, OP, and he left me for her. We had a 2 year old and a five month old baby and it was Christmas Eve.

I do think it's a feminist issue, but from a different point of view. The OW owed me nothing - we had no commitment, agreement, relationship. She didn't break any vows; she had no responsibility to children brought into the world by someone else. She was free to do as she pleased.

The XH had pushed to get married (religious reasons) and we both agreed to have children. He was the one breaking the vows, spending the family income and his spare time (I was a SAHM) on his affair, treating his children and their mother with such disrespect.

When this all happened, one of my first thoughts was that as far as it was in my power, I'd never allow another woman to feel the devastation and hurt I felt. I don't think that was my "feminist self" speaking - it was awareness of how painful it all was. If I learned anything from the experience, it was to treat people with a bit more kindness. (Actually, I learned a lot - never be dependent again!)

To this day, I don't think XH has any insight at all into how he broke me (thankfully mended now) and disrupted the lives of his children. As far as he's concerned it's all fine because we all survived etc etc.

I think we're very guilty, as women, for blaming other women. You just have to look at the number of "XW from hell" threads started by "new" partners. We need to go back to the 70s idea of sisterhood and support and respect one another.

Ooh! I do feel purged and lighter now!

[YonicScrewdriver]

I don't think anyone is claiming that feminism justifies the OW's behaviour. Some think her behaviour is separate to her feminism.

[almondcakes]

I generally agree with Basil.

Of course we are all human and people behave in ways that don't live up to their personal ideals.

But I don't think that feminism somehow justifies the behaviour.

There are feminists who get into poly relationships, but that involves having adult discussions about the feelings and well being of everyone involved, and considering people other than yourself.

The affair could have serious financial and emotional consequences for the OP and her children, and the OP is in a vulnerable position because she has two very young children. Both of the people in the unfair have harmed the OP, and it was totally unnecessary and avoidable for that to happen.

[loveareadingthanks]

Feminism used to include an idea of 'sisterhood', which to me doesn't mean you always agree and support each other, but you don't deliberately fuck each other over either. But in my experience, not a lot of women feel that way.(not that I'd deliberately fuck over a man, either).

She gets to do this and still define herself as a feminist. People can define themselves however they like, whether you agree or not.

My ex had an affair with a super-Christian, who works for a church. I'm sure she still thinks she's a good Christian, even though I'd disagree with that. Whatever.

Try not to get hung up on details like this. When the big picture is so painful it's easy to get sidetracked by little things that don't matter that much overall. Your problem is your husband and his infidelity, not whether the OW is a feminist or not.

[Yops]

Women who sleep with attached men... no I don't think that's a question for feminism. All people should be kind to one another. But all people are not. It's not an area where women are or aren't privileged.

When you get down to the level of this man and woman who did the deed, how does he exercise privilege and yet she doesn't, assuming both go into it of their own free will? This is a get-out-of-jail card for any woman to do anything, any time, without thought to the consequences of her deeds - 'Sorry I threw your cat in the bin, but it's the patriarchy, dontchaknow!'

[Vivacia]

There is a certain type of man who thinks that men are 'naturally' inclined toward cheating,

I can think of at least one female poster of this parish with the same thinking shaska.

[shaska]

You can not be into sexual possessiveness and still treat other people respectfully and not mess with people who are monogamous. In fact, in what I know of non-monogamous people, that's a huge part of it.

However, this isn't a question of non-monogamy.

There is a certain type of man who thinks that men are 'naturally' inclined toward cheating, or that they have some extra special right to do so. That position is a feminist issue for me. Women who sleep with attached men... no I don't think that's a question for feminism. All people should be kind to one another. But all people are not. It's not an area where women are or aren't privileged.

[Joyfulldeathsquad]

Being a feminist doesn't mean you get to shag other people's husband and have a moral excuse to do so. She sounds very immature.

[Vivacia]

I think that being an OW is a mistake. I just think it's a mistake that feminists can make.

[Shallishanti]

Of course!
Only the man has responsibility for that
But the OW has responsibility for what SHE does (she isn't cheating on his wife, but she is probably going to hurt her)

[Vivacia]

I think women can only go so far in taking responsibility for a man cheating on his wife.

[Shallishanti]

a few people have said 'it's purely a personal choice and nothing to do with feminism'
but surely, one of the most important insights 2nd wave feminism gave us is that the personal IS political, and all the observations re economic security and the 'higher value' of a younger woman bear that out
I think AB is right that other perspectives and experiences might also lead one to refrain from acting in a way that could harm another woman (and her children)- but perhaps only a feminist would frame that in terms if solidarity, as that implies a class consciousness.
I also think that age and experience plays a part. I can imagine being 20 something and thinking monogamy was oppressive. But now I'm 50 something I can see that adultery is betrayal and brings misery and pain. also that men will lie, lie, lie starting with 'oh, my marriage is dead anyway...'
etc
of course, NAMALT, fortunately.
Sorry this doesn't help the OP much, as a feminist I'd say the same as any sensible woman, LTB.

[Jackieharris]

Maybe as a feminist she doesn't believe in the institution of marriage?

Personally I've never "got" sexual possessiveness but I accept I'm in a tiny minority on that one.

I've been in a situation where a married man asked me to go to a hotel with him. I really fancied him but I refused the offer. Was my feminism part of my reasoning? Maybe. Even though I consider the idea that one individual has sexual ownership over another anti-feminist I respect that another woman has signed up to that deal. For me it is more about the potential consequences (stds being passed on & a child who is a half sibling to existing DCs being born out of an encounter) that was the main deterrent.

I don't think it's very feminist behaviour for women who all live under patriarchy together to throw stones at each other over our "choices". (Isn't feminism about acknowledging that our choices under patriarchy are constrained?)

Calling an adult female a girl isn't very feminist. (I still sometimes find myself doing this- it's a hard habit to break!)

Blaming the ow for an affair rather than the married party isn't feminist either.

To the OP, sorry your dh broke his promise to you. He needs to take full responsibility for his actions. I don't think it's going to help you focussing on the ow calling herself a feminist.

[AskBasil]

And another thing (breathes) - tbh I think we need to offer an awful lot better because to be a feminist in our society is to be pretty much a weirdo and an outsider and a dodgy all round person, so if you're not going to identify as it, then surely it has to be for something much better, not just marginally better, doesn't it? If not, why bother? Why not just be mainstream and safe? It's a lot easier.

[AskBasil]

Hmm. I don't know if I can explain it any better Vivacia but I'll try.

I think (though can't be sure) that my consciousness of all the shit this man must necessarily be throwing at his wife in order to pursue a fling with me, would stop me fancying him and therefore wanting to sleep with him. Or at least stop acting on the fact that in spite of the fact that I perceived him to be unethical and to possibly have a shitty attitude to women (because he has no loyalty or solidarity with the one he actually lives with and may have had children with) I still found him attractive.

I don't know how that differs from what you are arguing would be the feminist consciousness of a "choice" feminist. Branleuse argues that maybe she would reject monogamy etc., & that the responsibility for fidelity lies with him not with her, so that's one interpretation and it's a logical one (I don't know if it's your's). I'd reject that as feminist because it doesn't act in solidarity with other women, it's an individualist consciousness, which for me is not compatible with my feminism, though I accept it's compatible with some others.

I just think it's a bit crap though and as a political proposition, doesn't actually offer women much better than what we already have in patriarchal society. The freedom to screw each other over and make each other's lives unhappier, yay! Join the revolution sister! No thanks, it's not for me. I can see that it is of course a step up from being stoned to death for adultery, but it's not actually a very inspiring rallying cry. I just think we can do better, or at least aspire to.

[Amethyst24]

I'm sorry this happened to you, OP.

I think there are feminist issues at play here, in that women seek male attention without regard to the harm it can cause them and other women, and men's sense of entitlement to women's bodies can lead them to make horrible, selfish choices.

[Vivacia]

I think I've explained my consciousness in this situation quite comprehensively.

Well, I don't think you have. In fact you've left me completely baffled and unsure where to start addressing your points!

I don't think you are on the wind up, and I think we have that in common. I also wonder we're talking at cross-purposes and probably share more than we disagree.

[DadWasHere]

Its feminist if there is gender disparity in how a woman is treated if she has an affair, compared to a man. For example the threat of being harmed, imprisoned or stoned to death for adultery still hangs over the heads of many women. But in the above context I cant see it as anything but a personal choice unrelated to feminism.

[AskBasil]

Oh yes Irene and I totally agree with you, I'm not idealistic enough to believe that a "feminist consciousness" (whatever our understanding is of that) is enough to inoculate you against weakness, stupidity, selfishness, unkindness, etc., any more than any other consciousness.

I'm also not arguing that only feminism can give you the tools to not make bad decisions. Other belief systems like religion can also give you the tools to recognise a bad decision when you see it and not try to justify it (what you do with the tools is up to you).

I also think all the belief systems in the world don't protect you against low expectations and low self-esteem. I suspect that a woman who has grown up with a father who treats her mother with love and respect, has as an effective tool to make good decisions re men, as a woman with strong religious or political principles.

[Branleuse]

I dont think its anti feminist.

We could say she was uninterested in the bondage of monogamy and marriage. She didnt change your husband, nor ask him to leave you

I dont think feminism means you are nice to all women

[AskBasil]

Vivacia, again, sorry to offend but that's my perception.

I'm perfectly happy to be told I'm wrong and why.

What is choice feminism anyway? I'm not aware that it's an actual "thing" - is it? I use it as a shorthand for a vague, feministy type idea in the sense that people who are vaguely sympathetic to it feel that feminism is all about women's choices.

I don't think that's what feminism is about, I think feminism is a political movement for the liberation of women. As such, for me a feminist consciousness would be aware of power dynamics in all interactions between men and women.

I'm not sure what sort of feminist consciousness a "choicy choice" approach to feminism would entail and I guess assume there wouldn't really be one, hence my comments. I can't understand how you can have a feminist consciousness and still go in for shagging a man in a LTR with another woman and I'm not sure what the feminist consciousness that would allow you to do that, would entail. If you say there is one, then I believe you, but you haven't actually said what it is. I think I've explained my consciousness in this situation quite comprehensively.

I'm genuinely not trying to insult anyone or try to wind anyone up, I'm just trying to explore this topic honestly.