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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

There's a MRA standing for election in my area!!

114 replies

LadySybilLikesSloeGin · 08/04/2015 00:11

I'm just... Shock "Justice for Men and Boys"

"The human rights of men and boys in the United Kingdom have been increasingly assaulted by the state’s actions and inactions for over 30 years, as they have across much of the developed world. J4MB is the only political party in the English-speaking world campaigning for the human rights of men and boys, including the right of all children to enjoy good access to both parents following family breakdowns, and the restoration of fatherhood and strong families."

j4mb.wordpress.com

OP posts:
StillLostAtTheStation · 08/04/2015 23:01

My friend works at the mirror and went gunning for them a while ago

That's a really well written article. Good research , calmly written allowing the idiot enough rope to hang himself.

YonicScrewdriver · 08/04/2015 23:18

Damn that wily journalist woman googling stuff!

LadySybilLikesSloeGin · 08/04/2015 23:19

Think a link to the Mirror article is needed cos I can't find it

OP posts:
JohnAllman · 08/04/2015 23:31

@ Yops

"Where are the men's shelters?'. They get told, quite rightly, that they are perfectly free to go and campaign and raise awareness and funds for themselves. If men want stuff to address men's problems, men should sort it out. Isn't this an example of that?"

The points are

(1) Family violence isn't a gender issue, so there really is no need for shelters that only take men, or which only take women. Ask Erin Pizzey, who started the first shelter, and who is nowadays something of a Men's Rights Activist, who was kind enough to wish me well a few weeks ago, with my plans to stand for Parliament. (I am the "Let ever child have both parents" candidate in North Cornwall.)

(2) Most provision is earmarked for women only. There isn't any provision at all for men to shelter from violent women WITH their children.

(3) Most provision isn't funded from charitable donations, raised from only one gender. Rather, public money is funnelled into the businesses that run shelters.

More of this at
johnallmanuk.wordpress.com/2015/03/08/belgium-to-open-its-first-shelter-for-battered-men/

My blog post in response to the puiblication of the Justice For Men and Boys manifesto is called "Masculism, Feminism and the Euro Tunnel". It amused my youngest daughter no end. It's published at
johnallmanuk.wordpress.com/2015/02/16/masculism/

SabrinnaOfDystopia · 08/04/2015 23:39

We've got our first live one! Thanks twitter.

grimbletart · 08/04/2015 23:44

Of course there should be shelters for men. The thing I have never understood is why the MRAs whinging on and on about a lack of them don't get off their arses and just DO IT, just as women had to do when we wanted shelters.

LadySybilLikesSloeGin · 08/04/2015 23:49

There's a lady not far from here who set up her own refuge because there wasn't anything specific for other women who were also in her situation. If there's a problem with refuges for men, someone needs to set one up. Life doesn't come to you, you have to go out there and get on with it. As for blaming women when things don't go your way, now that's just silly.

OP posts:
almondcakes · 08/04/2015 23:53

Is there any evidence that the client groups' preferred housing option is for refuges? My experience is that most male DV victims want independent accommodation with visiting support (which already exists).

Or are we just assuming that homelessness organisations have no idea what they are doing when they choose particular forms of provision as the best option?

Is there any actual research showing that male clients who have experienced DV have a preference for refuges?

StillLostAtTheStation · 08/04/2015 23:55

Yonic are you referring to the Mirror article? Isn't Alex Hudson a man?

I haven't read a copy of The Mirror for years but I'm impressed by its online version.

SabrinnaOfDystopia · 08/04/2015 23:57

In response to your points, dv is a gendered issue. 80-90% of convictions for dv are against men, who have been violence against women.

Women started the women's refuge movement in the Uk - Erin Pizzey was there but had some very dubious ideas about women wanting and accepting violence against them, and so was discredited by feminists for obvious reasons.

Most shelter from dv is for women for the reasons that Mike Buchanan endorses as the correct 'order of things'- women are more likely to be the sole carers for their children, more likely to have given up their jobs to look after the children, more likely to be purely dependent on their husbands financially.

Men affected by dv are more likely to still be financially independent, less likely to be the carers of the children.

And MB endorses this - he says it's sociologically correct. Women are carers, men are patriarchal breadwinners. Because: Catherine Hakim says so.

JohnAllman · 09/04/2015 00:36

@ Anniegetyourgun

" 'Domestic violence – women are as physically aggressive towards opposite-sex intimate partners as men, or more aggressive' - wtf? "

Surprisingly to many, that is actually true, in mainly English-speaking countries with a high standard of living, in the present day. Mike Buchanan is certain to have cited a multitude of respectable sources - academic studies and government crime statistics, for example - to back it up. I've see such data myself, but I'd prefer you to challenge Mike rather than me for HIS authority for that claim of HIS. I'm a Parliamentary candidate elsewhere, with a different manifesto from Mike's.

The interesting question is why people on a website like Mumsnet, whom I expect to be well-educated and resourceful people, even though the name of the site is a bit gendered, off-putting to dads, even though I have found it useful in the past, as a dad ... The interesting question is why even smart, educated people on a website like Mumsnet, find it surprising to be informed that women are as physically aggressive towards opposite-sex intimate partners as men, or more aggressive. So surprising that they cannot bring themselves to believe the simple, easily-proven truth about intimate partner violence not being particularly gendered, as they had been taught, or had assumed. The huge gap between what science has proved (Mike's claim), and what people have been conditioned to believe (in ignorance), is stark.

This gaping gap between truth (intimate partner violence isn't gender-skewed after all) and popular perception (oh yes it is! WTF?) has not occurred entirely spontaneously. This gap has causes.

Research those causes, and you will begin to understand why Mike Buchanan, and Erin Pizzey, the founder of the first refuge for victims of intimate partner violence in the UK (if not in the world), shared a platform last year, at a conference about protecting the human rights that are most often infringed when the victims are men and boys, rather than women and girls.

Victims of injustice to men and boys can be female, as well as male. Ask any grandmother who never sees her granddaughter, because her son's ex-partner has succeeded in parental alienation. Ask .

SabrinnaOfDystopia · 09/04/2015 00:42

No, JohnAllman, women are not as aggressive as men in intimate relationships or otherwise.

That is explained by over 80% of dv convictions being against men, over 90% of all violence convictions being against men, and over 97% of all sexual violence offences being against men.

SabrinnaOfDystopia · 09/04/2015 00:57

John allman - I've found your twitter. You are very strange. Sorry to tell you that - I'm sure I'm not the first to tell you.

Do you realise that? Or do you just think you're cleverer than us? With your evangelical christian beliefs and conspiracy theories....

Oswin · 09/04/2015 00:59

So in the face off all the statistics that state otherwise you still trot out bollocks that women are as violent as men.
Woman hating dickhead.
I cant even be arsed to debate with you, I'm just too fucking tired.
But I will tell you this, even the males in my life who are super sexist, think men like you and your mates are mugs. The hatred for women shines through.
Did mommy not love you enough?

MontysMum8 · 09/04/2015 01:08

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

SabrinnaOfDystopia · 09/04/2015 01:13

John tweeted that he was "really upset" by this World churches join campaign to oppose violence against women

Yes. Upset by it, he says. Opposing violence is 'upsetting' to him.

Why, John?

CultureSucksDownWords · 09/04/2015 01:16

I read some of his twitterings and some of the blog posts.... the hate, the anger, the contempt and the bile about women and gay people that comes across is utterly repulsive, and to be quite honest it is frightening.

I sincerely hope that my son doesn't turn out like him or the other MRA mentioned at the start of this thread. I would consider that I had failed as a parent if that were the case.

Italiangreyhound · 09/04/2015 01:22

Oh dear all very sad stuff.

Italiangreyhound · 09/04/2015 01:38

I've listened to the Rosy Stanesby clip and it is very sad that she had a very unhappy experience of her family break up. But the idea that social services and the government is breaking up families to generate income from two homes etc is so ludicrous! I am sure children are not always considered in break ups and it may well be solicitors do not always do the best job for those who are breaking up a family. I have not experienced this myself either as a child or an adult so can only imagine the pain involved. But surely better mediation etc is the answer rather than wild conspiracy theories!

StillLostAtTheStation · 09/04/2015 02:10

I listened to it as welll. On a personal level it's very sad for her but I agree the family courts are not set up as a money spinning exercise. I picked up on her saying something about the CSA taking her father's driving licence away. Possibly she meant DVLA or I misheard her- but one doesn't lose one's driving licence for no reason.

Amongst her father's protests were handcuffing Margaret Hodge at a Law Society event, blocking the Tamar Bridge by camping out on it for 5 days and holding a rooftop protest on the roof of a private house occupied by a judge who had found against him.

SolidGoldBrass · 09/04/2015 02:25

Bwahahahahahahah John Allman. You have lost. You are a failure. Women all over the world are pointing and laughing at you and your squealy, poorly informed, illogical ranting.
We are also laughing at your imaginary friend (jeeezus, who never existed).

And yes, we are speculating about the inadequacy of your penis. It's probably within the normal size range, but you are desperately worried about it, because you think it's the only thing that matters.

JoanHickson · 09/04/2015 02:33

Most people could find ten local people and quite a few £500, to enable them stand at a GE.

This guy will stand, get a few votes he will not be elected into Parliament.

JohnAllman · 09/04/2015 03:48

@ SabrinnaOfDystopia

"Men affected by dv are more likely to still be financially independent"

Maybe so. But likelihood arguments like yours are deceptive and cruel to individuals.

Is the tiny minority of fathers, in fear of their lives, able to afford to drive themselves and their children to a safe B&B, so that their kids won't get beaten up by mum tonight either, not quite as tiny as the tiny minority of mums in that happy position of minor prosperity, so that those mums don't need refuge places either, to protect mum and kids from being beaten up again by dad? Probably so, if your "more likely" assertion about gendered economics is true. But such likelihood demographic differentials are not a just reason for publicly-funded refuges to have "no men" notices up in their windows, much as landlords once wrote "No blacks, no Irish" on adverts for rented accommodation.

What if all public funding were removed tomorrow from the sex-discriminatory "women's" refuges, so that any publicly funded refuge had to open its doors to domestic violence refugees of either sex, strictly on a basis that was as gender-blind as the Equality Act required, a fair cocktail of "first come, first served" and "greatest need met first", "greatest objectively-assessed risk to life and limb averted first" and "no fleeing families accommodated able to afford to flee to hotels instead" (the means test criterion), and so on? Every relevant factor considered, in fact, except sex-discriminatory inferences about the likelihood of this or that, informed from ideation about gendered ability to use a credit card to shelter in a B&B instead of in the appropriate place of refuge?

Whose agenda would it sabotage, thus to level the playing field, if market forces were allowed determine accurately how many men, and how many women ended up in unisex refuges, the only refuges allowed if the Equality Act were to be enforced, with their children if necessary?

How much better it would be to enforce the already-enacted illegality of sex-discriminatory provision of refuge places, than to tolerate it, based upon vague, hand-waving arguments like yours, about dads with children whose mum is a bully allegedly being "more likely" to be able to afford to carry themselves and their children into the expensive commercial sector of refuge provision.

"less likely to be the carers of the children"

Principle 6 of the 1959 Declaration on the Rights of the Child, declares that, "The child, for the full and harmonious development of his personality, needs love and understanding. He shall, wherever possible, grow up in the care and under the responsibility of his parents ..."

Parents, plural, please note.

It isn't normal for any child to have only one "carer". That is a fate that should only befall a child, whenever it isn't "possible" for him or her to have both the carers to whom he or she has the right, wherever possible, his mum and his dad.

Men remain able to impregnate even into the years of their lives when they have little life expectancy left. So one is more likely, even without a war like World War I, to find oneself a child whose dad has died. But women are more likely than men to physically abuse their own children so severely that a compassionate society might deem it not "possible" (i.e. tolerable) for them to enjoy their mums remaining their carers.

It is hard to say how many children who are not still entitled to both their parent-carers, because that ideal situation is no longer "possible", are left with mum as their sole carer, or dad. But, most children are entitled to two carers, one male, and the other female, their parents, because that remains "possible" in their cases.

Neither mum nor dad is the "primary" carer of a child for whom it remains possible to retain both carers, I hope, in your opinion, because that clichéd "primary carer" jargon, recipe for parentectomy, opens a whole new can of worms.

Even if one buys into the whole pseudo-science industry of "attachment theory", my argument that likelihood arguments such as yours, applied to who is or are a child's "carer" or carers (whether they be singular or plural) cannot justify sex discrimination.

Even if it isn't (as you argue) "likely" that children will often be made happier, because their individual impoverished dads, themselves by no means "financially independent", were allowed equally to take refuge in refuges provided to refugees of domestic violence and their children, is such a statistical argument as yours (as it would become, if you had cited any statistics), adequate to justify blatant sex discrimination, at the point of admission to a refuge? Must that dad's children be refused refuge from parental violence, merely because it was their male parent, rather than their female parent, who applied for refuge, by knocking on the door, when he and they could take no more of mum's routine child batterings and intimate partner batterings?

If a really poor dad knocks on the door of a refuge with five children, in fear of his life and those of his five children, is it lawful for the refuge to tell him to go home, and let mad mum murder him and his five children if she wants to, because he is a mere dad, and this refuge only caters for mums in danger of being murdered at home, along with their children?

Justify, if you can, the present day ideologically-motivated sex-discrimination, perpetrated by the publicly funded charities, against children with violemt mums, the minor sons and daughters of violent mothers whom peaceable dads have brought, in good faith, to the doorsteps of refuges, only to be refused refuge.

Roughly half of battered children are battered by their mothers, not their fathers. Roughly half of battered intimate partners are men, battered by women. That is how it is, nowadays. To publish this isn't misogyny. It is fact.

MontysMum8 · 09/04/2015 04:39

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MoustacheofRonSwanson · 09/04/2015 04:53

I think a big part of the reason refuges don't accept men is to ensure that abusive partners can't pose as battered men and thereby pursue their victim into the place of safety to which the victim has fled. It is to maintain sanctuary.

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