Language, literacy and hierarchies.

[Damsili]

I've been thinking about how languages have evolved within systems of hierarchies and how that must have influenced the form and flavour of the words and phrases that are used. Before we even have the ability to really question the words and phrases we use, we are fluent in our native tongue, habitual in its structures and even have our thought processes informed by the structure of our language.

Continuing with that, I recall someone recently quoting Sandi Toksvig as saying that the alphabet helped men maintain power over women. (Slightly throwaway remark on R4, but still!) Certainly the ability to read and write is used as a tool to minimise female power in many countries and throughout history - but does literacy itself actually aid patriarchy? In thinking about how language develops, I can certainly see that it maintains the habitual reinforcement of sexist themes.

With that in mind, I'm also wondering if social media has simply exposed existing misogyny or whether the rise of the written word in communication can be correlated with a rise of sexist vitriol directed at women.

Zing, midwife comes from "with the wife" ie the wife part refers to the female giving birth.

People can ask for a male doctor or a female doctor if appropriate (and as GP is one of the more balanced professions, probably do!)

Ah, I see we've moved on.

I was having the discussion about gendered profession names the other day and my bilingual friend seemed much more resistant to the idea of a woman being an "actor" than I was, because (her explanation) she spends half her time in a world where everything has a gender, so it feels wrong to use the "wrong gender" of a word.

But she didn't feel the need to call J K Rowling an "authoress", so I call bad logic.

the madchen - frau thing

Something I really like about feminism is the invention of words.

Mary Daly is the obvious example - she invents words because she cannot say exactly the things she wants to as existing language is too male centric/lacking in female centricity.

I love what she does with language. There is something very subversive and liberating about it.

Keeping gender-specific descriptions such as fireman just perpetuates people, especially children I feel, thinking of them in gender-specific terms.

I also don't like "woman vicar". I was struck watching an old programme the other day about the use of "woman police officer" as though it were at all relevant.

There did used to be POs and WPOs though.

Oh, I need to look up Mary Daly

The doctor thing: German lurve titles and keep adding to them. So, a female doctor is 'Frau Doktor LastName' - which traditionally is also the correct address for a woman married to a doctor .
My parents have an older neighbour whose words get stuck in her throat when she tries to address my mother as Frau LastName rather than Frau Doktor. Even though my dad has been retired for almost 20 years. He once tried suggesting they could address each other by their first names and she almost suffered apoplexy .

Sorry, I digress.
It does get a bit ridiculous: butcher and butcheressa? I am actually quite comfortable with 'butcher' to describe a certain occupation.
Although I kind of agree with Trill's friend: when talking/thinking in German 'Autorin' for a female author seems entirely 'natural'.
Social conditioning is a powerful thing, just to state the obvious.

"Academentia" - snarf.

I think I love Mary Daly, even though I had never heard of her until 10 minutes ago.

It may have been constable actually, as in the old WPC.

I think, in mentioning job titles, I've steered us away from more cerebral discussion actually.

Wpc, that was it.

No, I think job 'titles' or the names we give occupations do matter.

It was so rare and unheard of for a woman to be a police officer she had to be a WPC.
I have got very used to 'fire fighter', but struggle with 'midwife' - I know the word means 'with the woman' but it's so embedded in all things female that it feels more 'weird' to label a man as a midwife although it's technically correct.

I can accept 'hysterectomy' for what it is (removal of the uterus, same word root), but take huge issues with 'hysterics' being due to a woman's 'wandering uterus' (which is of course anatomically speaking absolute nonsense): IME men can be just as 'hysterical' as women, even with the total absence of a uterus, wandering or otherwise.
It is interesting how we know use 'hysterical' as 'extremely funny' - I quite like that change of flavour of the meaning

Ok I need your help oh language experts. I was discussing this thread via email with a dear friend. We have a weird in-joke where we have to type emails that are ostensibly clean but full of double entendres.

He has beat me. Every time I read it I am in complete giggles. He sent :

"And she moved gently, parting his patriarchal ways"

I can't reply because I'm in stitches.

HELP!!!!

Ooh, he's good

I know

Even reading it again I'm giggling.

It makes sense, Zing, but since my goal as a feminist is to see a world where gender is as irrelevant as eye colour, I can't dismiss gendering of profession names as "just how it is, and reflection of how how things were", but rather an outmoded type gender division that needs to be eliminated if we are ever going to achieve equality.

There are plenty of examples where a particular group used to be dominant in a profession, such as Indian farm labourers in the area where I grew up, slaves in cotton plantation, children up chimneys. All oppressed groups where they were confined to a narrow range of choices. But thankfully the world has moved on and these days we don't associate those jobs with those previously oppressed groups. I see no benefit to continuing to associate nursing with women or refuse collection with men. It's just limiting, short-sighted and oppressive.

I still remember being in Canada and seeing women working in jobs such as road repair and digging holes in pavements, what I'd normally refer to as, "workmen" I suppose.

I thought German was moving towards getting rid of gendered job titles, so you'd just be a Programmierer, not a Programmierierin (programmer). Need to quiz my German colleagues on this again (though if I have time to do that tomorrow, I'll be quizzing them on tomcat and java and SSL certificates.)

There's a chapter in Guy Deutscher's Through the Language Glass on gendered languages and how it affects perceptions. I remember they asked people with different native languages which words they associated with common objects, such as bridge, which is die Brücke (feminine) in German and el puente (masculine) in Spanish. It did seem that masculine nouns to tend to gain associations with more "masculine" attributes and feminine nouns with feminine attributes.

Interesting book, worth reading.

Annie

of course violence and oppression against women are terrible things, but those are terrible things no matter who the victims are.
of course trying to achieve equal pay and recognition in the work place , right to education etc etc are all important and yes discrimination against women is wrong.

But I'm a Christian so a lot of things that feminists agree with or trying to achieve are conflicting, if not irreconcilable with what I believe in and think is right, natural, logical or practical.
Therefore for me to agree with wanting to achieve total gender neutrality in many/all aspects of life is just simply impossible.

at this point I feel like shaking hands and say we have to agree to disagree about the gender being relevant.
can we do that Annie?
I like talking to you though

EBear, yes, I think there is a move to less gendered job titles (what do I know, I've not lived there in 20+ years) but the default is usually the male form. Which is the shorter and the older (of course) and often the more 'natural' sounding one.
Social conditioning again

I usually refer to cats as 'she' in English (die Katze) and dogs as 'he' (der Hund) - a female dog or a tom cat confuse me language-wise no end...

Zing, you've had some fascinating things to contribute to this thread from the perspective of your native language. And I'm happy to shake your hand. But since this thread is in the FWR section, where the fight against female oppression is ever at the forefront of our minds, I don't think you'll get anyone to agree to disagree about how important gender is!

The aforementioned Mary Daly (who, remember, I knew nothing about earlier this evening so take everything that follows with a pinch of salt because it likely came from Wikipedia) was raised a Roman Catholic, was educated and taught at various Catholic institutions including a Jesuit college and described herself as a 'Radical Lesbian Feminist'.
She eventually gave up on religion, but I am amazed how long she stuck with it - for somebody as uncompromising and analytical as her.

For us lesser mortals (I mean me, mainly, less 'radical' anyway), we all make compromises in RL, some more voluntarily than others.
I am interested in more clarity of vision and awareness in how I and they use language, for instance.

A language is a live language because it changes and adapts. I see no reason why societal change cannot and will not be reflected in language. It's happening all the time: I remember thinking 'chair person' sounded really odd and now it feels quite 'natural'. Out of small acorns…. an'all that.

Annie

Thanks.

but now I'm confused. I think you said it's important for you to see a world where gender is irrelevant.

I said I can't agree with total gender neutrality (are those two not the direct opposites of each other?)

but now you say gender is important. I'm not sure I understand now. sorry

So glad you looked up Daly, PacificDogwood - a feminist thread about language wouldn't be complete without a mention of her.

But I'm a Christian so a lot of things that feminists agree with or trying to achieve are conflicting, if not irreconcilable with what I believe in and think is right, natural, logical or practical.

This is fascinating and deserves a thread of its own.