Is it sexist to have a ladies only event?

[SollySuffolk]

I work in a vehicle garage and we considered holding a Ladies’ night to help local women drivers become more accustomed with the practicalities of car maintenance.

We would demonstrate the best ways to care for a car, showing basic checks, how to change a tyre etc. but were worried that this would be seen as sexist.

Would we be discriminating against men by not opening the event to them and would we appear condescending to women by offering this help?

I would love to know what your thoughts on this are. x

church has men only and women only activities that should say

No, they could offer both women only and men only sessions, but they could only offer JUST a men only session or a women only session if there were no objective reasons why they should do so. I corrected myself there.

For the example of a mechanics workshop, so many men do them already, that it would be difficult to find an objective reason to ONLY hold a men only session, but you could find an objective reason to hold ONLY a women's only session. You could certainly hold MORE men only sessions than women only sessions if you had more men signing up for them.

I think you'll find church groups are an exception, because of the religious element, sports events are exceptions because of the physical differences between the genders.

Associations are a different rule entirely. You can set up an organisation to service a particular group, eg men only, but are then still prevented from discriminating against TYPE of men, eg by nationality.

Are there lots of men only gyms? As in non association ones?

A gym isn't a sports event
And I'm not talking about church groups I'm talking about things held on church premises, which are volunteer based but not linked to religion.

I'm not sure why you are telling OP they can/can't do xy and z and quoting reams of legislation and guidance when it doesn't seem related to the situation.

If it's OK for OP to do a women only session and if there are complaints from men to put on a session for them if they have the numbers then that's all OK isn't it?

This feels quite straightforward to me.

I should clarify that what I said here:

"Private businesses can legally do whatever they like (she says having merrily spent the last 5 mins googling men-only gyms in London). Although if they seem to be discriminating for no good reason they will probably get complaints which won't be very good for business)."

Was around holding events like the one in the OP.

I wasn't saying they can literally do whatever they like, like tell gay people to fuck off or sell human flesh or stuff like that.

I'd have thought that was obvious and in response to the idea that it would be illegal for OP to run an event for men after the women's one, if they got complaints and/or interest.

Seven - I repeat - I corrected myself.

But then based on what others have said, I added the legislative guidance.

As it become a discussion, and not just advice to the original op.

I've asked you the question, 'are there men only gyms'? I've googled and I certainly can't find any. There are none in my area, certainly.

I know that men only clubs have gyms, they would therefore also be men only. But general gyms? I can't see any (which doesn't mean there aren't any, though).

I don't understand why you jumped into this thread to tell OP that it would be illegal to do something that actually it wouldn't and are now having a go at me

I just don't want OP to get put off the idea by raised spectre of legal action - I think it's a good idea.

Seven, I'm not having a go at you! From where I'm sitting I feel like you're having a go at me!

I haven't jumped into this thread, I'm browsing on all of the threads in this section as it's one I've never participated on before. It interested me.

I made an error in the first instance, corrected myself with the legislative guidance.

You said there were loads of men only groups, I asked you to find some, because honestly, apart from the exceptions allowed, I haven't seen any (that doesn't mean I like the exceptions allowed, mind). I genuinely haven't seen a men only gym, nor even men only sessions in a gym, but I have seen women only gyms and women only sessions in mixed gyms. I know there have been legal challenges against them which haven't succeeded, because they are there to redress an imbalance.

People said the op could do men only workshops to redress the balance. I was trying to point out that actually, they wouldn't need to do men only workshops to redress the balance, as holding a women's only workshop is how they are redressing an imbalance already there. Holding a men only workshop WITHOUT holding a women only workshop, on the other hand would probably be considered illegal.

There are men only groups in my locality. Dad and child groups (run by LA etc) breakfast clubs for male pensioners at my church (no female equivalent), I live in London and there is at least one men only gym that I know of, and a women only gym on my high street. I used to work for an organisation who offered advice and guidance to women only.

I can see where you're coming from but I don't think the law on this is as blunt an instrument as you are indicating.

I have seen it before that men only / women only is illegal and it's just more nuanced than that.

And I don't want to scare the OP or any lurkers off things that might be really good ideas and not illegal at all.

Tell you what, I'll meet you at Hampstead Ladies Bathing Ponds and we can have a cake and make up

The Op's idea of a women only workshop is brilliant.

I just don't want the op to feel as though the mechanic shop she works for needs to run a men only one to redress the balance.

On the scale of things, mechanic shops are on the extreme end of where women need far more support than men because of the historical attitudes of so many male mechanics towards women, so for THIS example, it's probably a really easy call. For other examples, not so easy.

The 2 groups you've mentioned I think are understandable ones.

Because there are so many groups which are effectively mother/female carer and child (because most SAHP and employed carers for children are women), and men are a tiny minority, holding a men and child group is actually a redressing of the balance for them. Again, men only breakfast clubs, I guess you could objectively say that the men need a friendship group, and there are lots of women ones already.

(Although I know there have been a great deal of complaints that the men and child groups are often held on Saturdays to enable working dads to attend, and there are no equivalent weekend groups where mothers working full time can attend with their children so not completely fair).

I'll never say no to a slice of cake!!!! (Although I've never even heard of the Hampstead Ladies Bathing Ponds - are they heated?)

Nope they're out of doors...

I'll take the cake and pass on the baths.... until summer at least!!!

The suggestion of offering to run a men only session was purely for the purpose of appeasing any men who make 'you can't do that it's sexist' remarks about the women's one - no-one was suggesting they actually run one.

Not enough men would actually sign up; snarky people, the 'political correctness gone mad' and professionally offended brigades generally enjoy complaining, more than learning car maintenance (I think).

I dunno some men might like one if they felt they could learn the basics in a non threatening / non macho type environment.

If I were OP I wouldn't rule it out.

TBH the more I think about it the more I think it's a great idea. I would pay a premium to go to a garage where I felt comfortable and where they didn't talk down to me etc and DH would like it too as he knows sod all about cars and stuff (he had to ask me how to check the oil level ) but looks like a blokey sort of bloke so they always talk like he's one of "them" and then he feels really out of place.

I do think that garages are getting much better with this stuff though, they seem to be round here.

Probably the marketing would need to be very different as others have said to get the target groups in.

I wish you luck with it OP

I did a car maint course when I first got a car (back in the last century.) It was mostly women, but there were a couple of boys in their late teens. It was fine, as we were all there for the same reason. The teacher was male, but he knew his stuff and was a good teacher, which is more key than being male or female, I think. (My definition of being a good teacher includes treating everyone fairly and with respect.)

I don't know how he'd have dealt with anyone behaving in a difficult way, because no one did.

it would be sexist but sounds likes it necessary. My union has womens only events all the time, be it assertiveness courses, confidence courses or conferences. They are all well received and barely even receive a hint of a complaint from anybody else. Go for it!

Having never once in my life seen a woman change a tyre at the side of the road (and I drive 30k plus annualy for a living) I think its fair to say there is a need.
Apart from anything else it would enable them to be safely on their way in the quickest time instead of waiting an hour or more for a man to come and do it for her.

Having never once in my life seen a woman change a tyre at the side of the road

The last time I had a flat, I knew what I needed to do. I just couldn't physically get the nuts on the wheel undone, and I'm not particularly weak and weedy. Took three of us in the end.

Besides, one of the messages on the car maint course I did was, if someone else is prepared to get their hands dirty for you, let them - you can direct what they do, and you'll know if they're talking rubbish or not.

Like Takver I also did a women only car maintenance course in my early 20s. While I no longer change fan belts and alternators (!), it has stood me in good stead over the years. I'm not frightened of under the bonnet but now I'm limited to changing bulbs and windscreen wipers.

Do it OP!

Children, out of interest, have you seen many men doing it without an RAC van?