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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Hear ye, hear ye! You're doing feminism wrong.

62 replies

FloraFox · 28/10/2014 10:32

Says this man:

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/oct/28/feminism-lite-is-letting-down-the-women-who-need-it-the-most

OP posts:
FloraFox · 28/10/2014 19:53

There are issues that get feminist time and attention that I don't agree with but on the whole I don't think it's constructive to denigrate huge swathes of feminism homogenised for ease of thinking under the banner of modern or western feminism. On the whole, unlike Lurcio's example of the police officer, activists can manage to care about or work on more than one thing at a time. Some activism is very time consuming (e.g. volunteering at a shelter) and some less so, like simply speaking up against something like sexist abuse directed at women.

Every now and then men like this come along to tell us how they've been biting their tongue about feminism for oh so long because of how they will be treated for speaking out (nb: no rape or death threats from women) but how they feel they can't hold back any longer from giving women the benefit of their manly reasoned opinion. Because of their terribly important contribution that will otherwise be lost. This is for women's benefit though ("tough love"? fuck right off). Funnily enough this is rarely anything more profound that chastising women for caring too much about themselves.

OP posts:
Chunderella · 28/10/2014 19:54

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Damsilli · 28/10/2014 20:05

Sorry, Lurcio, but I think that's exactly what's being said. Upthread it's argued (correctly in my view) that you may heckle a female politician's policies, but not the fact that she has a vagina - well, it's relatively clear here that the author's penis is central to the consternation being expressed.

Do I agree with him? No, not completely. But neither do I think that he's saying what you just accused him of. I took his argument to be that feminism is an urgent and serious business, but that he thought there was a patina of rather shallow thought that fashionable media-friendly feminism spread over the difficult issues that we should really be talking about. The example he chose to support this was the general 'yay for Julia Gillard!' sentiment which he saw as being at odds with much of what women's rights was all about because so many of Gillard's policies were anti-women. His view. This, to my mind, is a relatively feminist position to have taken.

I think the problem here is that this is an argument within feminism, but is viewed as an external criticism. ie, it's a position taken by women that not only see feminism as essentially a men vs women dynamic, but regard all men as being responsible and complicit for women's subjugation. Once you have that assumption, it's impossible for a man to talk within feminism and also keeps theoretical feminism as a single set of interdependent ideas, rather than a vast over-lapping and sometimes contradictory realm in which people of both sexes attempt to figure out how to make the world more equal.

FloraFox · 28/10/2014 21:33

Not his penis. His membership of the oppressor class.

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Damsilli · 28/10/2014 22:21

Did you actually say that with a straight face Flora? That's chuffing hilarious.

Spiritedwolf · 28/10/2014 22:34

I don't think that challenging small instances of sexism trivialises feminism. Instead I think it meets people where there are, from what they see and experience and can change and helps raise awareness of the wider issue of sexism and oppression. It's not a zero sum game.

It is clear that sexism which risks the life and bodily integrity of women is urgent and important and worthy of concerted efforts to prevent. But that doesn't mean small ways in which women and girls are overlooked, diminished and undermined are undeserving of time and attention. It all adds to the culture we live in and I think it can help.

If small girls aren't called bossy when they are assertive, then maybe they will be leaders of the future who can have real power to change things. If a small boy isn't told that the worst thing in the world to be is 'like a girl' then maybe he won't grow up to consider women and girls beneath him. If our media stops telling people that 'woman' is a personality type, worthy of only one character or panellist in male dominated shows then maybe issues which affect women would be treated as important issues which can affect half of humanity, rather than a special interest specialism that can be largely ignored.

It all matters. It's a straw man to say that feminists aren't tackling the big important stuff. Saying that feminists should only concern themselves with the things which risk lives, safety and livelihood is holding them to a ridiculously high utilitarian moral standard that means you can only act to help those in the very greatest need. It isn't how most people operate.

We don't tell doctors to stop treating minor ailments just because they are not life threatening. We don't stop helping people in poverty in the UK just because they aren't as poor as the poorest people in Africa. We don't stop treating people with benign growths, just because other people have cancerous ones, and in turn stop treating adults with cancer because it diverts resources away from children with cancer.

There are loads of non-critical things we spend our time and resources on. Preserving old buildings of dubious historical importance. Playing computer games. Reading stuff on Mumsnet. Writing articles victim blaming women for still being oppressed. There's no reason why we can't spend a few minutes adding our name to a petition against some small instance of sexism, is there?

So we have:
The Straw Man fallacy - because feminists do work on the 'important stuff'
Two-value logic - Cause X is important. Cause Y is not Cause X.
Therefore, Cause Y must be unimportant.
A false dichotomy - because you don't have to choose between Cause X and Y
A fallacy or rhetorical device that I don't know the name of where you say you shouldn't do anything about A until B is solved, which you can't start work on until C is solved, etc.

All without saying that possessing a phallus is a fallacy in feminist debate.

ZombiePuffinsAreREAL · 28/10/2014 22:41

Thanks for that post Spirited, it's helped to clarify things for me even more.

WellHelloAgain · 29/10/2014 00:51

What an amazing and brave article, hope those evil radfems don't spend too long hoping he dies in a fire and all his kids get cancer Hmm.

An area of growth for me as a person was recognising my internalised racism. I believe all people are equal. But I have been subjected to the same stereotypes and negative messages about people of colour throughout my life. I am not saying that it makes it OK, or justifying it. Just that recognising it, no matter how 'benevolent' it is, is key to challenging racism both in my own head and in others.

WellHelloAgain · 29/10/2014 01:06

Apologies, posted too soon.

I can seem to spend a lot of time objecting to, what can seem to be relatively Minor issues around racism on a regular basis. Anything that groups people into a homogeneous whole is wrong. According to this guy I must be doing it wrong, as I am focussing on everyday racism I can challenge, as it is not serious enough! As if the only reason we deal with the milder prejudice is so we can ignore the hard part.

I would n

almondcakes · 29/10/2014 20:32

If there is such a thing as Western Society there is such a thing as Western feminism.

I am sure there are feminists who spend their time on a diverse range of issues, some of which are life threatening and some of which are not. I am sure there are feminists who deal only with less life threatening or otherwise tragic issues indepth and that is fine. Somebody has to do it. The complaint is against the efforts of feminism as a whole, not against individuals.

I am sure there are feminists (all of them hopefully) who spend lots of their time going to the cinema and playing computer games, but that is not feminism so is neither here nor there.

Spirited, pretty much your whole argument is a straw man as the writer never said that feminism should address only the most serious issues and ignore the others.

It is a very simple argument...

The purpose of feminism is to work towards women's liberation.
Feminists deal with a range of issues, including those that cause more or less suffering.
It is possible for feminists to spend more time on one set of issues than another.

Surely we all agree on that?

The next part of the argument is that the writer (and me) both believe that (Western) feminism has the balance wrong.

The vast majority of feminist discussion online is about the less serious issues, and when serious issues about what is happening to women globally are mentioned, many feminists commenting don't have even the most basic knowledge of it.

I consider that a problem.

But there is no discussion of that, and no discussion possible, because posters would prefer to argue against a range of points that were never made.

FloraFox · 04/11/2014 13:12

Bringing this up again as The Onion have a really good piece just published:

www.dailylife.com.au/news-and-views/dl-opinion/three-times-the-onion-predicted-the-future-of-feminism-20141104-3jjdg.html

OP posts:
FuckOffGerbil · 04/11/2014 13:42
Grin
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