Just got out of the swimming pool....

[rosabud]

Like the poster who had to put up with men behaving unacceptably on a train yesterday, I have had a similar experience tonight at my local pool. I was with my teenage daughter and we were swimming quite late in the evening and, as we live in rural area, the pool was largely empty. A group of 5 men came in and began being rowdy and "larking" about and managing to "accidentally" get in our way. DD was intimidated at this point and wanted to get out but I told her not to be daft and we moved over to the edge of the pool and finished our swim.

When we got out, the men were already in the unisex changing rooms. As we walked round the corner one of them was wandering around naked and, when he saw us, laughed and placed his hands over his genitals. Cue raucous laughter from the other men and shouts of "Did she see your fucking length?!" DD and I ignored them, went into a cubicle and got changed, all the time listening to them loudly shouting and swearing about the lengths of their penises and what they could do with them. I was getting very angry and was going to confront them but DD, quite frightened, begged me not to.

Afterwards, I complained to the staff on reception that the behaviour and language had been appalling, that female customers who are in a vulnerable situation (naked and getting changed) should not be subjected to that and neither should the female member of staff who had been in the changing rooms at the time.

A male member of staff was very apologetic and said that had he known about it, he would have dealt with it, which I suppose is something.

I am so angry that men think it is OK and even funny to behave like this in public and to intimidate women. I am also angry that the female life guard did not immediately go and get security involved - I am not blaming her - it just makes me reallize how all women are socialsied to "accept" or "put up with" this kind of harrassment.

When we came out and got in the car, I had the rage so badly that I was shaking!!

I can't call the police, I just can't. For all the reasons Seven has already stated. It would be seen as ridiculous - we were not harmed physically; on the face of it we had to put up with annoying, laddish behaviour. Even the nudity could be explained as, "well it was nearly closing time, late at night, hardly anyone there, of course the lads thought they were OK to nip in and out the cubicles in their all-togethers." That's how it will be seen. Except there was a young female employee in there so they must have known she might see them and, being closing time, they knew that DD (who is 17) and I were about to walk into the changing rooms at any moment. I know it was deliberate, all women who have experienced this sort of thing know it's deliberate - but once you involve the police, it will seem ridiculous.

Also, the intimidation was real - the subject matter of their conversation, the shouting and swearing and raucous laughter were intimidating - but they will say it was all a joke. And to men like that, it is very, very funny. But the point is, the thing that they found very funny, was the idea that they were able to embarrass two women and make them uncomfortable. That's the point, I think. What to women is clearly intimdating, to men is merely funny. Men find it funny that women are made uncomfortable. What men don't then realize (or don't choose to realize) is that where women are made to feel uncomfortable, women will avoid. If that had happened to DD and another teenager, they would have left the pool earlier, or made a mental note not to go there at that time again. So, at the end of the day, men like that are laughing at the way can exclude us, at our powerlessness - that's what makes me so angry and that's what the police don't have powers to deal with.

I also can't call the police because it would be making too much of a fuss. I am a regualr at the pool and it is a small, rural community. I simply can't be the woman in the village who got all the leisure centre workers into bother with the police. The pool is used by locals and holiday makers from a nearby caravan park; it might be that the men were on holiday and will never go there again.

I liked the suggestion of writing to the pool, tough, making a formal complaint and suggesting that they train their employees not to accept this kind of thing as something that female customers or staff have to put up with. I will definitely do that!

Oh gawd I didn't mean to put you off! I was just saying what I thought I hope it wasn't my posts that put you off.

Writing to the pool is an excellent idea.

I mean, though, if everyone else says it's what they would do, maybe? Like I say, I have very little confidence in the police so it's me that's probably misjudging not the others.

Definitely write to the leisure centre.

God though, I totally agree with you about men who find it fucking hilarious to make women and girls feel intimidated / embarrassed / scared. And they probably forget about it 20 mins later cos it was just a bit of a laugh and the consequences for us are often more far reaching. Not serious, necessarily, but it impacts on our behaviour and view of the world, every time this happens.

No, you didn't put me off at all - I just mentioned you because you had already posted so succinctly all the reasons why I feel that it can't be reported to the police. I agree with you!

Are you feeling better today, Rosa? I was worried for you yesterday. You do whatever you think best reference the police. I wasn't aware you were so rural, but you're probably doing the right thing in not calling the police, especially if you think the dickheads might be tourists. A letter to the leisure centre might be good, no way should their staff member have been subjected to that either.

Thank you, Puffins, yes I have calmed down quite a bit today! I don't have the rage anymore. Been to work, sorted out the kids, started a cold (teach me to swim late in the evening ), sorted out some issues to do with my Dad who's ill..........what I'm saying is, this is how we get on with it, isn't it? We have the rage, we have our rant, we analyse it and then we have to get on. But it's good to have this space to share things. Thank you!

"Men find it funny that women are made uncomfortable. What men don't then realize (or don't choose to realize) is that where women are made to feel uncomfortable, women will avoid"

That's another lightbulb moment for me, thank you.

Whenever someone argues with me in the future about how it's all only a larf, I'll point out that it's a larf at the expense of excluding women. And in fact, in many cases it's the desired result and if men stand by other men doing this and argue that women are over-reacting, then they are colluding with the systematic exclusion of women.

Once it's pointed out so simply like you've just done, it's so obvious.

Where are all the MRA/misogynistic types on this thread?!

I can understand that you don't want to be 'that woman' in your small community, but there is quite a wide gap between 'do nothing' and 'report it to the police'. Perhaps discussing the incident with some of the older and (dare I say it) wiser women in your community to come up with a solution that makes your point, but doesn't overtly ruffle too many feathers would be more to your liking?

We're they grown men? They sound like kids? I wonder why they bothered to go swimming.
I would have probably gone mad or taken the Mickey but dd would have been like yours and not want red me to.
The pool should have done more tbh.
It's certainly made me re evaluate unisex changing rooms, women are very vulnerable in them.

Definitely complain to the pool, I take it it was a Council-run one? I'm not totally fond of our unisex changing rooms at our pool but I've never seen anything like that happen there - for god's sake, we're British - you change in your changing cubicle and you don't set foot outside it without at least your cossie on even if the building is on fire! :) (I have no problems with nudity in single sex changing rooms, but even when we had those at the pool you never saw people in their altogether)

They should have been called on their anti-social behaviour in the pool (not by you but by the guards). You see you did what women always do - move over to the side. Try not to get in the way. At minimum the men need to be excluded from the leisure centre if they are known.

They weren't teenagers - if they had been, I would definitely have gone into "parent" mode and told them all off. They were at least in their 20s, but hard to tell, a couple of them looked even older but they were quite physically big (well, you know, bulky/fat) and with very short hairstyles which ages people, I think. It isn't a counicl run pool, it's part of the caravan park facilities. Anyway, I AM going to write the letter just as soon as I find a spare 5 minutes

you change in your changing cubicle and you don't set foot outside it without at least your cossie on even if the building is on fire!
Once, the alarm went off literally as I was stepping out of my wet cossie. I got dressed before leaving the cubicle (not least because hypothermia would have been a bigger risk, had I evacuated without dressing.) Not that this is relevant.

At my local pool, if you're not in a cubicle, you'd be seen from the pool, so I don't think anyone over about age 3 would run round without clothes on. The showers are poolside, too. I've never wondered before if they're trying to cut down on nudity by design. I have noticed men don't seem very comfortable if you go under the shower next to them. If there aren't any other spare showers, that's just tough. I'm usually mostly concentrating on not getting shampoo in my eyes anyway.

I would report it to the police.

This is behaviour likely cause offence, alarm, or distress even.

I would report it too. Because indecent exposure and sexually aggressive behaviour is illegal.

Do you have a local newspaper OP ? If you do you could write about this and ask them not to print your name. You may find that other women have found their behaviour intimidating too.

I'm sorry to say, but I think reporting to the police would be a bit of a waste of time.

I think the idea of writing to the pool management is a good idea though.

I have a wonderful friend who I know would have called them out, and said something like 'lads, put your fucking cocks away and shut the fuck up'. She is very much the exception to the rule though. I would have done the same as you, seethed, but not said anything.

It is all a dominance display, same as catcalling. It's all about marking the territory as theirs and not ours.

At my old gym I used to go very early and it was great as it was completely empty, but once I went a little later for some reason and there was a group of blokes in there - in their forties! - just sort of, oh, "joking around". They made me really uncomfortable in that nameless, familiar way. I could swear one of them was pretending to wank himself behind me as I was swimming - he spread himself out over the stack of pool mats at the side. It was all... deniable but also completely unmissable? I got out and as I went through the double doors a great peal of laughter went up from them: victory!

Of course I never went again at that time. And tbh let my membership lapse shortly after. Sigh. Sigh!

Sorry that happened to you, esp with your DD there.