Does society fear "the whore" and especially the working class whore?

[MrsWinnibago]

I use the term whore as a quote not as a word I use personally.

I'm thinking a lot at the moment about prostitution, about women who sleep with multiple partners and especially about working class women who fit into this mold.

Society loves to deride and scorn a woman with "loose morals" doesn't it?

Why?

Is it out of some kind of fear?

Or is it because it simply makes people feel better to deride and scorn those who they see as weaker or less than themselves?

Shows like Belle De Jour make prostitutes into something society is comfortable with because she's middle class and attractive so they can relate.

What would that show have been like with a woman who was obviously working class? Different? The same?

Please share your thoughts if you don't mind.

Moon would the low wages of a communist China be another reason that prostitution got eradicated? Men wouldn't have much to spare surely?

Phone that sounds like an extremely odd friendship group...was there one woman who had more power?

Yes Mrs Winni - there were about 4 women who liked to dominate, the "original" members of the group, who then gradually recruited friends into a wider circle in a hideous, long-drawn out process. The amount of bitching and debating over whether anyone was "worthy" enough was disgusting.

Gosh, looking back, it sounds like Mean Girls...but without the fun of getting off with guys!

It sounds like Heathers!

I think the perceptions of sex workers stems from several things:

Men "other" them through the whole Madonna / whore complex; they want a "nice" woman to Mary and have their children and a "whore" to orgasm with. Think about the terminology around it: she's dirty / dirty sex acts.

Women despite all the sex positivism claptrap recognize on a very fundamental level that they would not want to do the work prostitutes do. No matter how empowering people can make it out to be, most women do not want to do sex work and so they fear finding themselves in a situation where prostitution would be their only remaining option. So that have to "other" sex workers too, to convince themselves "they would never do that". Because they recognize how horrifying it really is.

Yes, like Heathers in reverse - the group was staunchly geeky. Once I discovered nice clothes, makeup and dancing, these women didn't want to associate with such a liberated individual!

grey I was reading an interview with a sex worker last night...a 23 year old woman, a student of literature. She went into it to make money she said...nobody coerced her...she recognised that it was dangerous and that she met men who were abusive from time to time but still, she continued with it as "A baristas wage was despicable to me..the smallness of it."

So why do some women ignore the horror of it?

There's a very interesting book called 'The Good Women of China', by a wonderful Chinese journalist called Xin Ran. Having read it, I'd seriously question the idea that people were in fact 'equal' in Communist China. 'Othering' and very vicious sexual exploitation of women from certain backgrounds took place. IIRC, these women weren't in fact paid, so perhaps strcitly speaking it would be inaccurate to describe their horrific experiences as 'prostitution'.

Generally, I think that claims that prostitution didn't or doesn't exist in any modern society are very dubious indeed - similar to claims that in certain societies rape doesn't exist. To my mind all it means is that the existence of these things is not officially acknowledged.

Apologies if anyone thinks I've tried to piss on their chips with that post.

Greythorne, I think there's some validity in the whore/madonna trope, but I think that 'othering' is a necessary part of demeaning certain groups in a far more materialistic way - IYSWIM. I think groups of people are 'othered' not primarily because of 'mystical' ideas such as the whore/madonna concept (although these may subsequently be used to galvanise 'othering' and abuses). Groups (and individuals) are 'othered' because they are already economically disadvantages, or exploited, or represent an 'enemy' group, regardless of their own behaviour (see Xin Ran's book). They are 'othered' because myths need to be perpetuated in order 'justify' bad treatment of people.

I agree, the "othering" is necessary because how do you have rough, non-consensual, meaningless sex with someone unless you can rationalize that the other person is somehow worth less or deserves to be despised / treated badly.

This in a basic way, is how I see it:

All species want to survive and the main way a species survives is through reproduction. Women hold the key to our survival and the potential for power because of that is massive. They could, if they were in a position of power, decide who gets to reproduce and when, which babies survive (through abortion), how children are raised etc. However, men tend to be stronger and bigger, physically and so have the immediate balance of power in their favour. When societies formed they were geared towards retaining power for the dominant group (men) long term and part of that was controlling women's sexuality. Thus, women's sexuality was portrayed as shameful, dangerous and needing to be controlled, while men's sexuality was portrayed as essential and natural and needing to be satisfied. Women were kept economically vulnerable by denying them the right to vote, earn money, keep property etc so they would be dependent on men and not be able to simply walk off and suit themselves.

Under patriarchy the message is that men can and will and do hurt women but only because they "break the rules" by taking control of their own sexuality, by not being available, by advertising their availability without committing to one man. The message is that as long you follow the rules, you will be safe. Many women subscribe to that message, understandably, as they know the consequences if they don't.
Prostitutes are disadvantaged on all sides under patriarchy. Because they are women, they have less earning opportunities, are more likely to be poor and are more likely to be supporting children on their own. At the same time, they have severely transgressed the rules of patriarchy by appearing to take control of their sexuality and using it to make money. They appear to be controlling men in the way men fear the most - through their desire for women. Of course that is just an appearance, in fact they are providing an outlet for men who have no desire for women at all, simply a desire to dominate and humiliate a person they perceive to be lesser than they.

I think women fear and hate prostitutes because they show up the stark truth about society. Men and women aren't equal and men will pay to use women like a piece of meat because those men don't even see women as human.

I think men hate (and possibly fear) prostitutes because they remind men that ultimate the control of sexuality is in fact in women's hands and that men only control things through violence and the threat of violence.

In a truly equal society prostitution would not exist.

July I think single Mothers have been "othered" as have the working classes in general.

cailindana, that's a really good post.

MrsW - exactly! As have the vast majority of definable or describable groups in one way, or, er, an'other'...

Single mothers are "othered" because they show the world that it is in fact possible for a woman to raise children on her own, that she doesn't have to be tied to a man.

It is a watered-down version of earlier reactions to single mothers, which was to incarcerate them, steal their babies, shun them from society, force them into poverty, send them to the workhouse. The idea that a woman doesn't need a man to have children was quashed very forcefully, under the guise of "morals."

'Othering' depends on viewpoint (obviously) - anyone can 'other' another.
But the effects of 'othering' depends on the might of the otherer, length of time of 'othering' (so othering leads to norms, entrenched beliefs), and, sadly, I think, particularly in relation to sex-based 'othering', the extent to which (some) of the 'othered' are successfully coerced into perpetuating the 'othering' myths. Cailindana explains part of this really well.

By the way, MrsW, this relates to your othero thread (I think), but have you checked out the Royal Court regarding plays on prostitution? They had some interesting stuff on recently and their archives are probably worth checking.

Calindana, your last but one post was outstanding! You have utterly nailed it IMO

Thanks very much July kind of you to think about me...I will check it out.

I'm trying not to be closed to any philosophy but to understand all I can...without judging too much even if an opinion rankles or I instinctively don't agree with it....but it's hard!

Why thank you :)

An added problem prostitutes face is that they give the impression that they own their own bodies and will use them as they please. Under patriarchy that is not allowed. Women do not own their bodies, they merely keep them clean for men who decide when to use them. Women who defile and dirty themselves are not playing by the rules. Women who choose to be defiled and dirtied and then get paid for it are not only flouting the rules but completely shitting all over them.
Men want access to women's bodies, but they do not want women to have control over that access.

Yes, perceived 'ownership' and agency over physical self, probably a threat.

How about this, also: the idea that prostitutes see the side of (some) men that 'society' would rather keep hidden, so that prostitutes have intelligence of the vulnerabilities and deficiencies of men which, according to patriarchal values, 'shouldn't' be seen. Of course, therefore, according to patriarchal values, prostitutes must be denigrated, marginalised, discredited.

July that's interesting. I've read a lot of interviews with sex workers and a lot of them seem to say there are just two types. The nice ones who tend to be "grateful and gentle" and "the bastards who like hurting you".

Which is rather disturbing.