Women and confidence

[BelleCurve]

Can we talk about women and confidence? I've been thinking about this lately and it really strikes me this is a common marketing ploy.

Mascara, underwear, cereal bars -almost anything seems to be claiming to give women "confidence". Every career advice article claims we need more "confidence".

I am plenty confident, but I'm still discriminated against. Why are women supposed to need to be more confident in all situations?

That thread came up in my active convos. It's phrased something like: What makes a frump. I nearly replied 'being female' because it is a word only used to describe women. So it doesn't surprise me it covers a whole other range of isms either! I would undoubtedly be called a frump. I have short hair for a start and like wearing jogging bottoms.

I also dislike the inference that if you are influenced by media/advertising in any way that you are somehow lacking. Be it in brains, strength, confidence etc. We are all subject to them pretty much all the time, unless you live like a hermit. Even if it is something as obvious as not dressing your sons is dresses. That is societal influence.

And I don't think it is up to women to be strong enough to ignore these messages all the time. It is exhausting (although as we live in a patriarchy it is meant to be exhausting). It is very patriarchal to have a situation where the oppressed are bombarded with certain messages at all turns and then be told it is up to them to resist.

If you're on Twitter, @seriouspony has had some very interesting stuff to say about how we might think we're immune to manipulation but fuck no. Except more eloquently than that.

If even you personally do resist all the marketing and advertising telling you how you should look you are still surrounded by people who have fallen for its messages and who will judge and treat you accordingly; all those people who think you have failed to make the effort rather than have taken a conscious decision.

Exactly, CK.

jogging bottoms
As long as you don't wear faded bootcut jeans, scallops S&B hates those.

I'd love to say I'm immune to all the marketing etc. but I know I'm not, despite my increasing confidence.

I also found it actually upsetting on the thread that a stranger would describe a haircut like mine as 'sexless'; I know it's not personal but it feels a bit like it. I'm trying hard to not judge other women by their appearance, but it's an ingrained part of the way I've operated in the world for over 40 years. So it's no suprise really that the thread judges women in that way.

Ha - no Briar. They are more like tracksuit (dare I say shell suit - as I watch the looks of horror cross over everyone's faces ). A little more sophisticated than that - lightweight, breathable. Great for running and rowing. No shape to them though!

Sexless is a horrible word to use, balls. I can't quite articulate why. But I had a sharp intake of breath when I read it and I think it is personal.

The other problem with the whole selling confidence concept is that the fact that I have very low self-confidence means that "confidence" feels like yet another fucking thing I've failed at.

This.

I agree with everything written here about the beauty industry and confidence, but "confidence" is also a quality in itself that we are supposed to be striving for -even though, as Zazzles says, women are "socialised to be unconfident." As well as having all the usual unconfidence about my appearance, I am also unconfident about my abilities - my work performance/ability to parent etc etc. All my life, I have faced every challenge unconfidently, doubting my ability to succeed. Despite that, I have succeeded in many important areas of my life (although, rather unconfidently, I prefer to dwell on the things I haven't been so successful at ) so everyone, of course, tells me that I should be more confident.

Last year, I started a new job. At the end of the year, in my appraisal, my boss wrote that I had been very successful. In the "improvements" category, she went to write "Rosabud needs to be more confident." Astonishingly, I found the confidence to say, "Actually, can we not write that? Bosses/tutors/friends have been writing that about me all my life and now I'm in my late 40s and it's never been an 'improvement' that I have succeeded with so can we just accept that I am not confident and that I am never going to be confident - please?" She laughed and erased it.

So I've accepted it now. Rosabud is a very successful person in many areas of her life. But she is not confident. Move on.

I didn't like the s &b Fred either.

Rosa I grabbed my performance review form and deleted all the "but ...". (Is that confidence!?) Say "Rosabud is a very successful person in many areas of her life." Full stop. Surely no "but" needed. Who, man or woman, is perfect?

Scallops I'm still mildly seething about the use of 'sexless' and have given it some more thought. I think it's 'this person is not performing femininity in the way I do / approve of so they are therefore not-women'.

Rosa in the past I've written performance reviews which say 'lack confidence'. Having read your posts and others above, I shall look out for that tendency if I'm in that position again.

I also agree where someone above feels like confidence is (paraphrasing here) another sodding thing to fail at. I can fake confidence like a pro, but suffer horrendously from imposter syndrome.

I grabbed my performance review form and deleted all the "but ...". (Is that confidence!?) Say "Rosabud is a very successful person in many areas of her life." Full stop. Surely no "but" needed. Who, man or woman, is perfect?

I had a long rant about my January review for similar reasons. Every single positive point was diminished by a "but..." To be fair, my mid-year review was much better in the way it was written (it was better generally, but he had clearly absorbed the bit about separating different points out.)

I was reading this article earlier from the HBR about how women don't apply for jobs unless they're 100% qualified - I think it shows how important confidence is - "Major decisions were made and resources were allocated based not on good data or thoughtful reflection, but based on who had built the right relationships and had the chutzpah to propose big plans." Though of course, as a woman, if you come over as too confident, that will count more against you than it would for men.

Interesting thing talking about performance reviews, I read an article in the Harvard Business Review online (but can't find it again, now I want to link it) which compared the PR's that men received vs the ones that women received. It found that men received more positive comments and less negative comments, while women received more negative comments and fewer positive comments. Tie this in with the fact that there are more men in managerial positions than women, and you have what is called the 'soft war on women in business'. So women as a whole, do get far more socialisation which damages their confidence, and it is institutionalised in areas like marketing, our social interactions, and even PRs.

Oh, forgot to mention that the above study says that the only men and women they put into the study were high performing men and high performing women, so they controlled for the level of performance before anyone argues that line. And women still got more negatives and less positives, even when they are regarded as high performers.

zazzle and OP's "I am plenty confident, but I'm still discriminated against" YY. I also told my boss that I'm not going on any "renewing myself" training courses because it's people who discriminate who ought to be sent on training courses to learn not to discriminate.

I'm sure I have read that article; thought I forwarded it to a friend recently - we had a discussion about how depressing it was. Can't find the link, though, which is going to annoy me now...

See, I know I'm properly weird on this front. Because I genuinely don't worry about my appearance, beyond general cleanliness. It's like I forget that I have a body . When I was pregnant people I didn't know well would say "how far along are you?" and I'd be surprised for a second that they knew I was pregnant, until I remembered I had this huge belly sticking out that they could see. I've tried wearing makeup but I just cannot be bothered. I brush my hair in the morning and that's it, I don't think about my face again till I'm brushing my teeth at night. Marketing for face products etc definitely doesn't work on me, in fact it all comes across as really weird, this obsession with faces.

It may come from my dad, who is oblivious to the entire world.

I also don't think much about my appearance, though I sometimes wonder if that's because I think I look OK anyway. I'm mostly oblivious but have moments of self-examination and think about what and how I think but almost never think about what other people think except when they annoy me which is a lot these days. IYKWIM.

I'm one up on cailin because I don't even brush my hair. Though now that it's mentioned I might go and do it.

I think to some extent the "but -" comments on women's appraisals are post facto rationalisations that they haven't been promoted.

we don't have a great formal appraisal structure at work, but to the extent that it exists at all, one thing I really struggle with (not just here, but every job I have had) is the lack of critical feedback at the same time as patronisingly well disposed, but still utterly absolute, refusal to promote me. Every promotion I have ever had has been through applying externally for another job. When I try to find out internally how I can progress, I get stonewally head-tilty waffle.

I have no idea how much of that is me, how much is patriarchy, how much is the field I work in, or the companies I have worked for, but: to the extent that this is about sexism: I would suggest that the frequency of the "needs improvement" remarks in women's appraisals are a subconscious response, over time, at better organised and more audited companies, to women saying "ok so i have excelled here, here, and here. Why have you promoted him but not me? And when are you going to promote me? And what do I have to do about it?"

That all sounds familiar (currently battling for promotion to make the point as much as anything else.)

Someone said something complimentary about advice I gave elsethread recently, but I'm not quite sure how to use Mumsnet as positive feedback at work...

I left one company after promotion was refused for not meeting requirements that weren't asked of any of my male colleagues. (Was good in a way - I ended up getting myself a big payrise & was way better for my career). I saw some of the HR advice to my manager at the time which actually used the phrase "use soothing words, etc".

This company had a pattern of women at more junior grades consistently outperforming men in a way that suggested that they were actually working unofficially at a grade or so higher, but not given the grade.

I think women in male dominated fields (which includes a lot of female majority fields at the more senior levels) have a particular problem when non-experts are asked to judge, as having no field expertise they fall back on "well, does this person look like an X?" I've found that especially in the earlier stages of my career, I tended to get refused by HR types, but if I could get hold of a geek, they'd start out wary but after a few minutes they'd go "fellow geek!" and suddenly get really enthusiastic. I would not be working IT without having done an end run around the "official" routes in.

stonewally head-tilty waffle - I've seen that directed my way as well .

I left one company after promotion was refused

and

This company had a pattern of women at more junior grades consistently outperforming men in a way that suggested that they were actually working unofficially at a grade or so higher, but not given the grade.

Oh god yes my experience too!

zazzles It was years before I copped on to the fact that not only could I apply for roles I hadn't already "proved" myself in by doing them as cover/unofficially for years, but that men did it all the bleeding time! Felt like there must have been some sort of dog-whistle effect going on, where alongside the "you must PROVE yourself first" official line there was a special male frequency "but you can skip that bit, mate" signal.

I now make a point of talking about my management experience as just that - rather than apologising for it because so much of it was without "officially" being a manager. (I got the training, never officially the grade, just did the job.)

Oh yes, I've had that too. Just know you, do the job for several years but we can't possibly actually give you the title or the money