5 questions for people who advocate legal prostitution

[AskBasil]

genderdetective.wordpress.com/2014/08/10/five-questions-for-people-who-advocate-legalizing-prostitution/

Made me fink

[DadWasHere]

Prostitution will not be going away. No matter what you think of it or why it exits or who uses it or who provides it, who pimps it and who sucks it down, or their motivations or their dreams or nightmares or if it could be a valid 'empowered choice' or just self delusion or whatever. Justice Vs Injustice words words words. Blah. Men Men Men. Meh. Its a dangerous business, right now, and its not shutting its doors. Legalisation and regulation allow for the best possible safety and support framework for sex workers, the vast bulk of whom are women, and I support it on that basis.

[KristinaM]

Child abuse and human trafficking isn't going away either. No matter what I think of it . But this doesn't mean it should be legalised

[JapaneseMargaret]

I would love to think it was possible for prostitution to be made illegal, but I don't see how it will ever be eradicated.

Sex genuinely is a recreational activity for men, in every sense of the notion. It's not for women because it carries the potentially extremely far-reaching ramifications of producing a child. The playing field couldn't be less level, and that's never going to change.

Pregnancy and its far-reaching ramifications is simply is not something men - especially punters - need worry their little heads about. So certain men will always avail of their services.

They don't see what I, and presumably other feminists, see - that they're buying someone's consent, who would otherwise not be in the slightest bit willing to give it, i.e. they're essentially raping someone.

They seem themselves as indulging in a fair exchange.

No matter how much of a sea change there is in prostitute-user's attitudes, sex, for them, is nothing more or less than an enjoyable pass-time, that they see plenty of women willing to sell to them.

[KristinaM]

Well I guess that's where we differ, Margaret . Because you see men using prostituted women as being about recreational sex. I don't. I think it's about power and abuse

[DadWasHere]

Child abuse and human trafficking isn't going away either. No matter what I think of it . But this doesn't mean it should be legalised.

Those are violations of rights and I would think that prostitution of under-age trafficked girls is particularly a problem in countries where prostitution is either illegal or legal but unregulated.

[JapaneseMargaret]

I don't think we do differ, Kristina.

I think men who pay for sex are rapists who use wallets instead of knives. Ergo: it is about power and abuse.

I said men view sex (not with a prostitute; just sex, full stop) as a recreational activity - you've vastly misquoted me above! And punters just extend that notion in their own heads.

They don't see (or care) what I see, i.e. that they're rapists.

[JapaneseMargaret]

Consent is an extremely troubling concept.

If you have to coerce someone into consenting, or pay them to consent, it's not consent to right-minded people.

But it clearly is consent to many, many people. i.e. men.

[DadWasHere]

If you have to coerce someone into consenting, or pay them to consent, it's not consent to right-minded people.

Not many people consent to work for free that I know of, why is sex a special case? No money must change hands? Sex cant be 'work' and must always be mutually desired otherwise its tainted? A sex worker should be capable of telling the difference between a john and a rapist, what does that spin on except consent and validity of recognising it? Look, its not meaningful consent to me either but for entirely different reasons than devaluing the authority of the sex worker to consent. I don't feel I have the moral authority to lay that on an uncoerced worker if they are a fully consenting adult making their own choices, be they hard, poor or difficult ones.

[OutsSelf]

I really can't agree with your assessment that men view sex as recreational, JM. I personally know many men who are able to cognisise their relationships with those they have sex with beyond the functional, and interpret the consequences and risks as elements they share responsibility for. You position is so biologically reductive.

[OutsSelf]

DWH It's so hard not to interpret your position as disingenuous - you talk about protecting women, but in practice you just want to legitimise their abuse. Funny how all your solutions require nothing of the men involved except they can rest easier in their bed at night.

[KristinaM]

I applies for misquoting you Margaret .

However I don't agree with your generalisation about men's attitude to sex .

If it's all about risk of pregnancy, what about women who have no risk of pregnancy eg post menopausal women, women who are already pregnant, those who cannot conceive because they have been sterilised or are infertile, women who have sex with women . Do they all see sex as a recreational activity in the same way as men do ?

I take it from the context that you mean ONLY a recreational activity , not that only men " enjoy" sex and that women do not .

[Slarti]

they're buying someone's consent, who would otherwise not be in the slightest bit willing to give it, i.e. they're essentially raping someone.

Doesn't that apply to pretty much every paid task? I'm not saying that cleaning toilets, for example, is the same as prostitution, but you wouldn't be the slightest bit willing to do it if you weren't being paid, so in that specific way it is similar. That raises the question: is it wrong for someone to get paid to do something if they wouldn't do it for free? That isn't to say that prostitution is not wrong, but is it wrong for that reason?

[GarlicAugustus]

Some of my friends, in the past, were very expensive prostitutes. They certainly chose it. They were sometimes abused, and I wouldn't say their choice was entirely 'free' as their underlying values weren't all that well balanced. While I would describe what they did as technically being raped, I can attest they lived extremely well, had some freedom to veto certain clients & activities, and could have left the business at any time.

So perhaps all our questions relate mainly to less-expensive prostitutes?

[GarlicAugustus]

... Instead of advocating legalisation or criminalisation, should we be advocating better pay?

I'm asking that for the sake of argument, btw. The real solution is to abolish male 'entitlement', but that might take a while ...

[scallopsrgreat]

I agree the solution is to stop male entitlement. One of the ways to hit that is to tell men that they aren't allowed to buy women's bodies i.e. criminalising punters.

I don't know how you'd let prostitutes have better pay when their pimps will probably take it from them anyway if you don't do something seriously about tackling and penalising them too.

[Viviennemary]

I'm not sure if I agree that legalising it would make things better. And what about strippers and other kinds of sex work. Should they be banned. Interesting point that if everyone was completely financially independent then there would be no need for prositution from a woman's point of view.

[JapaneseMargaret]

If it's all about risk of pregnancy, what about women who have no risk of pregnancy eg post menopausal women, women who are already pregnant, those who cannot conceive because they have been sterilised or are infertile, women who have sex with women . Do they all see sex as a recreational activity in the same way as men do?

I'm talking about men as a group, and women as a group.

From the moment they can have sex, it is purely an enjoyable activity for men.

From the moment women can have sex (and not many women start having consensual sex before they get their first period), it comes with the risk of pregnancy.

Mankind and womankind do not come at the activity from an equal position. I don't see how anyone can deny this. Looking at the population level, bigger picture - sex is consequence-free for men, but carries serious risk for women.

Yes, of corse, there are individual women who are infertile (who generally won't know that until they're older and actively TTC), women who pass through the child-bearing decades and hit the menopause, etc, etc, etc.

But that doesn't negate the fact that the two sexes view the act of sex quite differently. Yes, of course women treat sex as a recreational activity now, in this day and age, but only when they've sorted their contraception out, and many will still have that bit of worry when their period is due.

And traditionally, of course, women have born the full brunt of the shame associated with pregnancy outside marriage, illegitimate children, being forced to give children up for adoption, Magdalene Laundrys, being ostracised from families, and all the rest. While the men got off Scott-free.

Men have none of that. Yes, your individual man does, because he loves you, and cares about you. But I'm talking about mankind in general.

Maybe I'm struggling to make the point in way that's clear. It must be fabulous to hit adolescence, discover sex, and not have to worry at all about what might happen to your body (and ultimately, your life) if you conceive a child...

I just think this fundamental difference, sadly, makes it very difficult to envisage a future where prostitution no longer exists...

[DadWasHere]

WTF? How?

Are you kidding me? Same as any adult being moved illegally can tell the difference between being trafficked/kidnapped Vs being smuggled, by their consent.

You know prostitutes get raped by johns, right? Even without describing paid sex as 'rape'. And it happens pretty frequently, actually.

What on earth do you expect to happen where something is illegal yet highly sought after with no particular alternative? Its what made prohibition in the US such a colourful and dangerous time in history. Conducting any illegal activity makes it FAR more dangerous, you place yourself at the mercy of clients and the criminal underworld. Being raped while engaging in an illegal activity, what are you going to do with that, go to the police? You need protection from clients? Sorry if its illegal, you don’t get to work in a legal brothel where clients are videotaped and the manager will call the police at the first hint of trouble, you work out of sight and your backup is a pimp and a can of mace in your purse.

[GarlicAugustus]

You're right, of course, Margaret - sex is far less consequential for men than for women, generally speaking. The Pill was supposed to fix that. Well, it helped a lot, but the basic issues remain. All the same, a woman can have sex for fun these days, with little fear of unwanted children, and most do :)

We still don't go around buying access to other people's bodies, though: at least, not as casually as men do or in such numbers.

I can envisage a future without prostitution! It's one in which everybody is financially self-sufficient, in which 100% contraception is freely available, and where buying access to other people's bodies is considered revolting.

[GarlicAugustus]

a legal brothel where clients are videotaped and the manager will call the police at the first hint of trouble

This is what I think many posters won't believe about a legalised trade. My unsuccessful forays into the business happened at very expensive hotels, where the booker worked on reception. There was no way anything bad was going to happen to me - apart from what was supposed to happen.

You can get that when you charge a thousand pounds. Theoretically, I'd be in favour of licensed, monitored, limited, regulated & taxed brothels until we can solve the underlying causes. In practice, though, the criminal elements won't be removed so easily and the customers won't stop looking for a bargain. Cf Munich & Amsterdam. Problems much worse.

[caroldecker]

In the UK, with our benefits system, is prostitution a financial necessity?

[noddingoff]

SGB, I have a couple of friends who are obstetricians. Not a job for everyone, but they love it and want to be obstetricians for ever. I'm from a farming family. Not a job for everyone, but despite the low profit margin and the weather, and the fact that you wouldn't know it from the whinging of some of them- most farmers are still wobbling around the yard with a bucket in their hand at the age of 90 while their son does the work, and eventually get carried off the place in a box. Most farms where I live are owned by the farmers (very little tenant farming), the land itself is sometimes worth millions and yet I only know one farmer who sold the whole thing to build a golf course and make a mint. My window cleaner is a cheery chap who is building up his business and my DH works at height in his job. It's not a job for everyone, but he likes it (though the physical aspect brings most of them to earth in the end).

Prostitution "isn't for everyone", but maybe the vast majority of prostitutes whistle on their way to work, love their job, are proud of their empowering, rewarding "career choice", would turn up on a Monday morning even if they won Euromillions and plan to become a madam when they are too old to do the work themselves and wouldn't mind too much if their daughters followed them into the family business. Ya think?

[SolidGoldBrass]

Some sex workers do like their work. Some see themselves as healers and therapists. They are in a minority, but they exist. Lots of people do lots of different jobs that they don't like much but which suit their current circumstances. I would think that most people these days don't actually plan on remaining in the same line of work (whatever it may be) forever and i doubt that many of those who work in chain restaurants or call centres or as cab drivers see their employment as a 'family business' that they want their children to follow them into.