Foetus' right to life vs women's bodily autonomy

[AmberTheCat]

I've just been reading a paper written by a friend of a friend, arguing that a foetus should be seen as having the same right to life as a postpartum human, because there are no lines that can be drawn between a foetus and someone post-birth that couldn't also be drawn between two postpartum humans. He added a note to say that clearly there is a question of how this right to life relates to women's autonomy, but that this wasn't something he was addressing in this paper.

Given that this is surely THE question, can you help me refine my arguments for the primacy of bodily autonomy? My instinctive view is that I can't see any way of denying that a foetus is a human being, or at least has the potential to become a human being, depending on how developed it is, but that the decision of whether or not to allow that (potential) human to grow inside her must still always remain the woman's. I'm quite out of touch with the thinking around this, though, so would welcome pointers.

Thanks!

Cote, I think that was a peculiarly inappropriate comment to CY about a very serious issue - how rude!

What on earth are you talking about, Thumb?

You're completely correct CY.

In the UK, you can only have an abortion after 24 weeks gestation if there is significant risk to the life, physical or mental health of the mother or if the foetus has a disability. None of the babies aborted for these reasons will emerge alive.

The problems with Kermit Gosnell went way further than the 3 infants born alive after he was supposed to have aborted them. There had been complaints about his fitness to practice for years, he had been stopped giving infant shots because of the unsanitary conditions in his clinic. He wasn't a bad man because of the botched abortions, he was a bad man because he was a bloody awful physician who had a god like belief in his own abilities. Like Shipman.

Part of the reason that he got away with it for as long as he did is because of the prevailing attitude in the US that abortion is evil, people who work at women's health clinics are routinely harassed, their addresses put on the internet along with details of their children's schools etc. School boards are put under pressure for educating the children of abortionists and so on. Because of all this, there are not enough physicians who are prepared to perform abortions and so those who are are often snowed under with work. Another part of it is that healthcare in the US is expensive, health insurance companies will often not fully cover women's health problems, especially those around abortion, KG offered low cost abortions, predominantly to ethnic minority women, who often can't afford to go anywhere else.

The problem now is that KG is being used as a stick to beat women with. Legislators are rubbing their hands together in glee as they can now challenge Roe vs Wade in roundabout ways. They can't get rid of the ruling, but they can make abortions nigh on impossible to access out of 'care and concern' for women's health. It's another string in the bow of the war on women that seems to be raging in the US. As Florynce Kennedy once said 'If men had babies, abortion would be a sacrament'.

Cheerful - No, I had not heard of that Kermit. He sounds insane

I love Kermit the Frog, too

"I am pro abortion on demand up to 24 weeks (though 22-24 weeks is a bit grey for me)."

Doesn't the Law cover this already? Or at least I mean, subject to a doctor's (Two?) approval then you can get an abortion quite easily up to 24 weeks and the very few that are carried out afterwards are for serious medical reasons.

I never understand why people debate this issue when they already support the law as it is?

I do think he was a bad man for killing living, breathing, crying infants.

I agree CY, but there was a hell of a lot more to it than that, and that is the only bit that keeps getting reported about.

Goop because they don't really support the law???

Oh, okay. Yeah.

I can't imagine the desperation that would drive those poor women to that hideous place.

The desperation comes because all the other places have been shut down by protesters and heavy handed legislation that makes them near impossible to stay open. I'd that's your only clinic within 200miles, what choice do you have?

Cote - this:
"The only Kermit I know works in Muppet Show,"
How facetious. You could have googled, since CY gave you the man's full name but no, you chose to attempt to shoot her down in a very juvenile fashion.

Or the desperation comes because they have no work, no education, no access to contraception, and no decent men to raise children with.

I can't imagine the desperation that would drive those poor women to that hideous place.

I read an account by a woman who had used his 'clinic'. She went in and was shocked at the conditions but couldn't have a baby.

She knew it was risky, she knew her life would be in danger, she knew short cuts were taking place. She stayed because that was her only chance to terminate her pregnancy.

And because it was her only chance she kept quiet about what she saw, because she knew for others it would be their only chance.

I do agree with the woman's right to terminate her pregnancy up to term.

I sincerely hate the thought of it, (my 8 wk termination was a hard enough decision to make) but to stamp over another woman's right to make her own decisions just to salve my conscience? No. I couldn't.

'I never understand why people debate this issue when they already support the law as it is?'

The debate is the status quo (which I favour) versus the right to abortion on demand until term (which the majority on this thread favour).

It is a valid position to debate to be pro the status quo

Buffy I nodded along in agreement with your entire post. Often what is brought up on any thread about abortion is late term abortions. That women are so airy fairy and stupid that they wake up one day at 39 weeks pregnant and think I will have an abortion today. Women presidents, women running businesses, women going to school, women running a household, women in space. Do our brains fall out of our uterus to make way for pregnancy?

Most women are not fickle. Most men are not thieves. Having a law against theft is not a sign of low expectations of people in general, it is to protect society from those who do not conform to moral norms.

It is interesting, Buffy, that you talk of medical teams not being prepared to perform the procedure. Maybe you are right but should that moral decision be delegated to doctors or should society as a whole step up and take responsibility?

Ultimately, if you don't believe an 8.5 month old foetus is a human being, this debate is pretty simple. If you do, it is much harder.

It should not be left to doctors, then you created localised shortages and things like the above US story happen.

I have had an abortion in a very catholic country (where it is legal, hard to get but legal) and some of the female doctors were horrendous to me. Interesting the two male consultants I saw were nice.

Thumb - I wasn't shooting Cheerful down but basically saying I've never heard of that Dr Kermit. She says herself that I wouldn't have heard of the guy, because he was news in the US, probably not Europe. I don't think Cheerful's feelings were hurt either, so really, I don't know what you are talking about and sincerely feel that this is more about a chip on your shoulder than any rudeness or inappropriate behaviour on my part.

On a general note, I'm not 5 and you are not my mother so please try to control that urge to tell me how & what to post.

Watch your own chip there, Cote - I wasn't telling you what to post, I was telling you that you were rude. Which you were.