Girls dumb down to please boys and fit in

[edamsavestheday]

Fascinating stuff - I think we did know it but interesting research to test the idea. Depressing though... I got this info at work, btw.

A researcher from the University of Warwick joined a Year Eight class for three months - she attended classes, did PE lessons, took exams, had lunch in the cafeteria, played in the playground and joined them in trips to shopping centres after school. Dr Maria do Mar Pereira found girls feel the need to play down their intelligence to not intimidate boys. By the age of 14 boys had decided that girls their age should be less clever.

She said there are very strong pressures that dictate what is a 'proper man' and a 'proper woman'. Teenagers feel boys should be cleverer, stronger, taller, funnier and boys 'that being in a relationship with a woman who is more intelligent will undermine their masculinity'.

Based on these experiences, she says: “Our ideas of what constitutes a real man or woman are not natural; they are restrictive norms that are harmful to children of both genders. The belief that men have to be dominant over women makes boys feel constantly anxious and under pressure to prove their power – namely by fighting, drinking, sexually harassing, refusing to ask for help, and repressing their emotions.

“Girls feel they must downplay their own abilities, pretending to be less intelligent than they actually are, not speaking out against harassment, and withdrawing from hobbies, sports and activities that might seem ‘unfeminine’.”

She's written a book called Doing Gender in the Playground which has won an award for qualitative research.

NB She did have permission from everyone concerned. And I'm not a PR for her or anything, just got the information at work and thought it was fascinating.

I could have told her this!

A depressing number of men that I've met feel very threatened by intelligent women. The women around them either dumb down, or these men feel the need to put the women down.

I'll get the book though, one of my DNieces is just mind buggeringly bright, DBro would benefit from being shown what could happen.

Anybody who's been around some young women and seen the pigeon-toed, head-on-one-side, simpering that goes on around men knows there's an an element of truth in this.

It makes me want to slap them with a copy of The Handmaid's Tale and forcibly yank their shoulders back while hissing "You're letting the side down, fuckwit."

And weirdly, it tends to be the well-educated student types that do it.

Not that weird, I suppose. Disappointing, though.

this does back up both my experiences and suspicions

it looks as though the book might only be available in portuguese.

edam do you know if she has published in english?

Yep. Not surprising.

Sad, though.

And the thing is, if young women don't dumb down, society has plenty of ways of making them internalise the idea that they are genuinely less intelligent than men anyway.

Thanks Edam

Yep. Resonating right back.

That absolutely inimitable 'my world-view is central so yours must not be' attitude. And it's not (mostly) deliberate.

The funny thing is, I know it's not because I picked up a fair bit of it. If I even look at my own old posts on here, I'm doing that classic 'Well, to play devil's advocate for a moment ...' thing.

This is also why I really dislike the idea that if we just socialize girls to argue 'like boys' it'll all be ok. It won't.

This doesn't surprise me.

However it wasn't the care at my academic private school. The most popular girls were also very intelligent.

I think there are class dynamics to this.

What socio economic groups did these pupils belong to?

I think mc girls are more encouraged to be intelligent by schools/boys/parents/society than wc girls.

I think the film educating Rita is a good demonstration of this.

Sorry to post and run, haven't been well.

Weatherall, not sure about class, I guess I'd have to buy the book (if I get the chance I'll ask for a review copy - am off sick today). She went into one school - this study, at least, is qualitative, not quantitative. But there may be more research in the book.

I know lots of people already thought along these lines but it is interesting (if disappointing) to see some research backing it up.

I agree there's a socio-economic side to it. But I don't think it's simple. I know plenty of middle-class girls who have been taught to be smart - up to a point. They've been socialised to think getting good A Levels and a nice 2.1 or low first is a very good thing, but ideally, this should be achieved by studying hard, writing conscientious essays and doing well in exams. It should not be achieved by arguing loudly in class, let alone by correcting the lads.

They wouldn't say that in so many words, but it's the case.

Are you feeling better, edam? Sorry you weren't well.

Whatever girls and boys may think about proving their intelligence, it remains the case that girls are out performing boys.

In a classroom situation where boys are dominating conversations, even if they have nothing particularly valuable to contribute to add in every case, is the intelligent thing to do not to talk much but to get on with your work?

It is a sort of eyes on the prize mentality. The prize being your exam results which are a ticket out of there. There is no oral component to almost all subject exams.

What one person perceives as not demonstrating intelligence, I see as not facilitating the education of others who don't respect you by making your own achievement the focus.

Quick post sorry but wanted to say first it's an argument for girls schools maybe and second ime and talking to others on here those who went to girls schools are more likely to have done "boys" subjects and also maybe more feminist as able to do anything at school and then attitudes of blokes in the real world coming as a shock.

Book sounds really interesting. Thanks Edam

It's easy to observe and as a small woman I think I've probably internalised a fair bit of it as it is undoubtedly an 'easy win' in many social situations. That doesn't make it right, but when the desired outcome calls for a particular behaviour, I'm fairly sure I've manifested 'cute' on occasion.

I'm in management now, so of course I modify my behaviour according to stakeholder group. As a teen I was so desperate to be accepted as 'me' that I barely moderated by default behaviour at all (this was not entirely positive, despite me being a basically good, if argumentative, person).

In my working life I have observed that acceptable behaviour from men and women does seem to attract a double standard (and I'm talking meetings here, not nights out). It is hard to convince people to change their behaviour when that behaviour attracts results (albeit in teens their focussed outcome might not be the long term one).

This is really interesting and I have certainly seen examples of women not arguing back with men however I'm not sure the fault necessarily lies with the men...

I am reasonably bright and very well educated. I also come from a family that values education and debate. In addition I am naturally... err opinionated.

I regularly tell men they are wrong and argue with them in social settings (in the pub etc).

I have certainly shocked female acquaintances on occasion with my forthright manner.

My DH has said it's one of my most attractive qualities and that in his opinion all his friends would prefer an intelligent, confident wife or partner. Certainly they all seem to like me --despite how rude I am to some of them-.

The only people who have ever told me not to argue with men are other women.

My stepdad resented having me around and I learnt very early that the only way to be a bearable presence in his life was to act stupid and helpless. our conversations were often started by me asking him questions which I already knew the answers to. Seeking his opinion was good, having opinions of my own was bad. It took until I turned 30 to break that bad habit.

Gatorade

What I find frustrating is that with many men I find myself in a conversation where they are the ones giving advice and I am the one asking questions and being oh so impressed by their replies.

I can't be bothered to deal with all the weird looks and stupid comments so only bother talking about or commenting on things that interest me when I'm in the mood. It's exhausting. Is not like what I like is that strange nor that the comments are offensive, just that after the fiftieth conversation explaining that yes I like X even though Gasp I'm a girl it's tiresome and boring. So I suppose in that sense I dumb down or at least keep my thoughts and opinions to myself in quite a few situations.

I can't be bothered to deal with all the weird looks and stupid comments so only bother talking about or commenting on things that interest me when I'm in the mood. It's exhausting. Is not like what I like is that strange nor that the comments are offensive, just that after the fiftieth conversation explaining that yes I like X even though Gasp I'm a girl it's tiresome and boring. So I suppose in that sense I dumb down or at least keep my thoughts and opinions to myself in quite a few situations.

I shop in a small market town where the shopkeepers get to know their customers and put the world to rights together!

My local butchers know I am a sports enthusiast and we have conversations about the merits, or otherwise, of the national and local cricket and rugby teams.

They never patronise me or look down on my opinions because I am female.

And it always comes as a huge surprise to me that I, as a woman, am listened to and my opinions deemed as valid as the male customer chatting next to me.

We will have achieved equality, not just when that happens everywhere, but when we cease to be surprised at it

Grimble, yes, it's only when we take it as normal that we will have achieved equality.

LRD, thanks for asking - I've got a chronic condition that is flaring up. I'll be fine, just need to adjust to new way of taking meds.

I used to be far more assertive about challenging people who I think are being unreasonably sexist but these days I let some of it wash over me as I've realised some people will never change their minds. Would challenge if something was plain wrong, though, IYKWIM. Female friend recently, in a group that was otherwise entirely male, stated that 'women aren't funny' as all her favourite comedians are men. I did have a go at that one but it was amusing that all the men - who I've known for far longer -told her, eek, you can't say that to edam, you are going to get it now!

Actually thinking about it I've realised that I would challenge anything disablist/racist/homophobic, so I should be more assertive on sexism...

The Same Boat - that frustrates me about myself too. I was at a work do the other night, and got talking to a colleague about Venice. I'm going soon, he'd been recently. Despite me mentioning several times that I've been to Venice twice before, he spent about half an hour telling me everything I should know know about it. Aaarghhhhhh!

I'm generally quite assertive in voicing my opinion, but I think I need to work on not falling into the pattern of letting men dominate the conversation because I'm better at asking them about themselves than they are at asking me about myself...

Anti intellectualism is endemic with pressure and abuse levelled at members of either sex who dare to allow others notice their superior intelligence. I don't see framing it as a feminist issue and pitting two sets of victims against each other as helpful.

Well, I see it as helpful, because it affects women disproportionately.

I'm not convinced this is something as simple as anti-intellectualism, either.