The "Friend Zone"

[KoalaFace]

I'm sick of hearing about it.

As if enjoying a man's company and wanting to be their friend but not wanting to have sex with them is some kind of punishment.

[SwimmimgMonkey]

This is why I am so glad to be old and not as attractive as I used to be. It's a kind of freedom, to be able to be friendly and smile and not be accused of leading men on. You're quite open, people would say, it gives the wrong idea.

The downside is of course invisibility and the realisation that a lot of men were just being nice, not because they liked you as a person, but because they wanted something. That's pretty depressing.

I blame a lot of it on When Harry Met Sally! It put it in everyone's minds the cynical idea that men and women simply can't be friends.

[TheSarcasticFringehead]

Yes. If a woman or girl isn't attracted to you, it's not friendship, it has to be friend zoning. Although one of the few times I've heard it in my life, it was actually by my cousin, who is gay, so not against women at all. It usually is though. I have male friends. They are my friends like I am friends with women. I don't think they've ever been attracted to me, but even if they were (women or men), me saying no wouldn't be wrong or unfair or friend zoning, it would just be me saying no.

[arsenaltilidie]

Women are judged mainly on looks and everything else is not important.
Laughing at his jokes will not affect how attractive the woman is to the men.
Women can never be bad in bed.

On the other hand men have to be rich, good looking, charismatic, be good in bed, be dominant, be nice,....... List goes on.

Men moaning about being 'friend zoned' is the same as women moaning about men not calling back, disappearing.
Both parties are frustrated the relationship isn't going the way they wanted it to go.

[CaptChaos]

Men moaning about being 'friend zoned' is the same as women moaning about men not calling back, disappearing.

No it isn't..... Men whine about being friend zoned if they don't get the sex they feel they deserve from a woman they believe they have 'invested' enough money or time into. Women 'moan' about men not calling back when a man has said that he will call and doesn't. Both times the man is being unreasonable.

Just to reiterate for you.

A woman doesn't have to have sex with a man just because he thinks he is owed it.

If a man doesn't call, it's usually because he took her number knowing he wouldn't, which is pretty childish really. Your list of what men 'have to be' is also rubbish.

[CrotchMaven]

Fucking hell, arsenaltilidie. Every time you post, it just reinforces how spot on feminist analysis can be. Your assumptions about what men have to be in the eyes of women need a little work, though. (although being nice and good in bed are not that challenging, are they?)

[Darkesteyes]

I live in fear of meeting a "John" I have loose skin from a massive weight loss so I stand no chance.

[Darkesteyes]

AskBasil Sat 24-May-14 22:16:18



You notice there's no female equivalent of the friend zone.

Because we're not entitled to have sex with men who aren't interested in having sex with us.


This resonates so well with me.

[DadWasHere]

Yea, I am sick of hearing about it as well, these days anyway. When a small number of people know about a term the meaning stays relativity consistent and focused. As more and more people jump on the bandwagon it changes and expands in scope as it dilutes in definition. By the time it reaches popular internet and media culture it morphs into something utterly unrecognisable. Today 'friend zone' somehow manages to encompass everything from simple unrequited love with no particular gender exclusivity to male sexual predation masked as friendship, depending on who talks about it and how they want to spin the bloated old pig the term friend-zone has become.

The original friend zone was more of a situation where the male wanted a relationship with the woman who also wanted a relationship, just not with him. He offered commitment but got no sex, she offered sex (to other men) but got no commitment.

Basically, as I once saw it put by someone:
Women are not sex dispensers that accept commitment coins.
Men are not commitment dispersers that accept sex coins.

[DadWasHere]

The friend-zone was once seen on the net as a type of relationship triangle. The early idea was that the male was in the friend zone not only because the woman did not find him sexually desirable but also because she repeatedly failed to find a sexual relationship with another man that also encapsulated the level of friendship and commitment she had with her male friend. The 'zone' could not exist where the woman shared all three things (sex, friendship, commitment) with a partner.

The dispenser analogy seems to be a modern re-spinning of the old concept that society and some individuals still see sex not as an equally shared activity but as a gift women give to men in the expectation of return of something else (love/commitment/stuff/whatever), a gift men should somehow prove they are worthy of and by virtue of feeling they achieve said proof then feel they are entitled too.

[arsenaltilidie]

Crotch
Men and women agree to date and the women changes her mind; sees him more as a friend.
Men and women exchange numbers but the men changes his mind; decides not to call.
Men will moan for being friendzoned, women moan for guys disappearing.
Both these men and women are perfectly entitled too change their minds, therefore it's no one's fault not men's fault

Some women on this forum have a warped view of men, they interpret someone being nice and genuine to him wanting something in return.

He may want to have sex with the woman but it doesn't mean he is not a nice and genuine person.
In most cases these men that get friendzoned are often too nice for their own good and lacking in something that make them different.

According to google Women want:

1. Women want men who exhibit confidence (or power)
   
2. Women want men with a sense of humor (fun)
   
3. Women want men with money or the things money can buy (sense of security)
   
4. Women want men with looks (protection and attraction)
   
5. Women want men with a bit of "Bad boy" qualities (mysterious and independent/strong)
   
6. Women want all the other stuff they typically list (varies - sensitive, caring, etc)

[AskBasil]

"Men and women agree to date and the women changes her mind; sees him more as a friend."

Deeply disingenuous. Men report that they get "friend-zoned" when there was never any agreement to date or prospect of dating on the horizon. They presented themselves as actual friends, not dates. Hence women's deep outrage and disappointment and betrayal, when those men who may have been friends for years, declare that they've only come to see you for sex. Because you're not a friend after all, you're a depository for their cock.

Most men would not define the situation you've outlined as friend-zoning, they would define it as dating not leading to anything. That's actually different from friend-zoning.

[UptoapointLordCopper]

Sorry can't help laughing at what google thinks women want. Just as well I don't rely on google to tell me what to think.

[BriarRainbowshimmer]

That was really funny!

[AskBasil]

I want a man who is aware of his privilege, works to get rid of it and looks like George Clooney.

Google fail there.

[beatingwings]

I want a man who knows his way around a periodic table and who thinks Calculus is elegant.

[canrelate]

I was a bit oblivious to this in the past but now I realise it's happened to me a few times, but what pisses me off more is that I was pressured into acting out the whole attraction thing in an effort to maintain the friendship (which of course never works). Realising that men I admired are actually deep down quite misogynistic and don't see me as a person is really really disappointing.
One guy DP and I lived with, I considered a very close friend, my best friend I would have said. One day we went to the local supermarket together and we were putting food on the belt when he said "Let's pretend we're married" and started talking to the cashier as though we were husband and wife. It was incredibly odd, and I felt so uncomfortable. Another time, when he was drunk, he hugged me really hard and then insisted on standing too close to me despite my asking him (nicely of course ) to stop it. I felt quite intimidated as he is a tall, strong guy. Once I got married I felt he lost interest in me and we hardly communicate at all now. These incidents and other things he's said/done make me strongly suspect that he was my "friend" as he was interested in me, and once it became very clear, through marriage and kids, that I was absolutely not available he just lost interest. It is incredibly hurtful as I still love him just as much and still want the close friendship we had but he just doesn't seem interested at all.
There have been other similar incidents, but less upsetting as I could just end the friendship without being too bothered.
But now I find myself in a somewhat similar situation. I'm a regular who's namechanged as I suspect DH reads some of my posts and I don't want him to know about this. I'm a SAHM and I have a SAHD friend that I've known for just over two years. I like him a lot, just as a friend, and we get on really well. However, lately he's started acting a bit funny and it's pissing me off as I feel like we're heading into the same territory, where I feel compelled to return flirting in order not to damage his male pride. He's started going to the gym in the last 6 months or so and is now very fit and toned. Good for him I say, well done. But the last time we were out with the kids he did everything he could to show off his strength and his biceps and I just found it so cringey and awful. I wouldn't mind if he said, as a friend does "Hey look, I've got muscles now!" and showed them off, so I could see the results of his hard work. But no, it was very obvious sexual posturing, admire my strong body, sort of thing and I had to work very hard to ignore it.
In the past I would have felt duty bound, almost, to return the flirting, but I am determined not to do so this time. He is my friend, he is attractive, but I am not attracted to him, we are both married and I just want us to carry on hanging out having a laugh without all the subtext and bullshit. But I know what'll happen. He'll see I'm not interested and the friendship will fizzle out. I know it. Sigh.

[DadWasHere]

His big complaint though is that he isn't having sex with her.

Not really but I am not sure it matters, a term means what people decide it means at the time and its been kicking around since decades ago. Today the male 'friend' seems portrayed as less of a friend and more an acquaintance/orbiter who seeks out a chance of friends with benefits sex rather than, of old, passively hopeing for a committed relationship without realising he waits in vain. I guess that modern abstraction allows for the term to be re-cast with the extra malicious male intent it is currently flavoured with. In another 25 years it may alter further to refer only to men who pretended friendship for the sole purpose of seeking opportunity to rape.

But, historically, the friend zone big complaint was less about sex and more about that the girl would compliment the male friend on all the qualities she liked in him but establish sexual relationships with men who had none of them, creating patterned relationship failure he could foresee that she never would or choose to turn a blind eye to.

[spence82]

From my experience from seeing things about the friend zone its usually men winding up other men.

For example that they aren't confident enough to show there true feelings so they just cling on a friend. I've not seen any anti woman sentiments

[KoalaFace]

I posted 3 memes on Saturday at 20:42 that show anti women sentiments.

Another was posted shortly after. They are all over social media.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

'Historically'?

I'm envisaging big books with footnotes.

No, seriously ... when did it mean that, and are you sure it wasn't just you misunderstanding how people used it? Quite a creepy concept, mind. After all, there are many qualities I admire in my friends but don't find sexually attractive, and I doubt that makes me unusual.

[canrelate]

Dadwashere - I can sympathise with a man who genuinely likes a woman that seems to walk blindly into shit relationships while he stands on the sidelines and tears his hair out. I have seen friends I love do the same thing and it is infuriating. Equally there is nothing wrong with harbouring a secret hope that a friend you have feelings for will reciprocate those feelings (although it could be argued that you are just setting yourself up for a fall and wasting your time, but heyho, it happens). The issue is when a man sees the time and effort he puts into the "friendship" as an investment that the woman is at some point required to return, with interest, in the form of sex. The underlying assumption is that a woman owes a man sex if he is kind and supportive towards her, and that the "friendship" is basically just a ruse, a transaction as the man in that spoken word clip put it. In that situation the woman genuinely believes the man is her friend and expects the friendship to continue. When the man suddenly gets angry or loses interest because he didn't get his side of the "bargain" (ie sex) it is incredibly disappointing. It basically says that this person who you saw as a friend didn't see you as a friend at all but as a potential fuckslot that he could gain the use of by building up "credit" in the form of kindness and support. It's bloody awful.

[canrelate]

In the case of my old friend, it wasn't so much that he expected sex, but that as soon as my potential as a mate was closed off to him he just lost interest in me. He didn't want a friendship, he wanted a relationship, and when that was off the cards he just didn't see the point in carrying on being friends. That made me feel pretty valueless.

[spence82]

I'm sure there are some with anti woman sentiments but the from my own personal experience I've never seen the friendzone used as an insult to women.