The "Friend Zone"

[KoalaFace]

I'm sick of hearing about it.

As if enjoying a man's company and wanting to be their friend but not wanting to have sex with them is some kind of punishment.

[BillnTedsMostFeministAdventure]

"Callin, my problem is that you think when men who use the term friend zoned in this way do nice things, they will feel they 'deserve' the said woman."

Fixed that for you.

[arsenaltilidie]

Callin, my problem is that you think when men do nice things, they will feel they 'deserve' the said woman.
Are you the type of person that does nice things to get something in return?

[CailinDana]

DWH - no one would dispute that both sexes have unreciprocated feelings and can behave badly around those feelings.

This thread is about the term "friend zone," where it comes from and what it means. "Friend zone" is a term coined by men to describe a situation in which a woman rejects a "nice man" and is seen by the "nice man" and his friends as misguided because she has should go for the "nice man" as he does all the "right things." The idea behind it is that if a man behaves like a decent human being, by being kind and friendly, then he deserves a relationship with the woman he chooses, regardless of her feelings. In fact it's seen that her feelings are wrong because she should go for the "good guy," as that's what all women claim to want. It centres around the idea that women don't know their own minds and that they're idiots for going for "bad guys" who treat them badly.
"Friend zone" has negative connotations because it implies that a man wouldn't want to be a friend to woman - what's the point of that? Being "friend zoned" is a demotion, an insult. It doesn't recognise the fact that a woman is perfectionly entitled to choose who to be friends/lovers with and men getting angry about it, to the extent that there's even a term for it and whole websites berating women for it, just shows their sense of entitlement around relationships.

[CaptChaos]

It's gendered because men say it is. It's an MRA/PUA/MGTOW thing. That yow of man couldn't give a tinkers cuss about women's agency. It's an assumption that women deliberately set out to make men sad by not fucking them when they want them to.

[DadWasHere]

It troubles me that some women in this thread seemingly cannot conceive of the friend zone being anything other than specifically gendered. I have know women who had feelings for me that I did not reciprocate. They did not 'get over' those feelings and maintain what seemed a normal friendship, one broke contact, another chose to limit contact and another decided perversely to hang around even more, becoming strange and almost hostile, I told her to piss off in the end.

But I did not assume that any of them wanted to fuck me for their own sake, I assumed they wanted their feelings reciprocated, be that about sharing sex or deepening the friendship to a more committed relationship that included sex. Are some women who believe a gender inverted friend zone cannot exist hung up on the idea that sex is fundamentally more important to men (in relationships with a problem of high Vs low libido, gender appears to split 50/50). Is it limiting the agency of women lusting or assuming a woman who lusts after a man is almost always guaranteed a hall pass because the male 'lust zone' ends further out than than the male friend zone? Perhaps imagineering the friend zone as gender neutral would also not be possible for anyone stuck in a mindset that sex is inherently a gift women give to men, because you cant selfishly want to give a gift? A lot of ideas about it, but little clarity as to why some women would think the friend zone is gender specific.

[arsenaltilidie]

AskBasil; Women do attempt to date guys out of their leagues. Women like a challenge, they want to be the woman that changes him. That's why 50 Shades sold millions of copies.

SGB, men WILL lower their 'standard' when it comes to sex ie. you are good enough for sex when I'm bored and have no one, but not good enough to post pictures of us together on FB.
I think you'll find the greatest majority of men will accept she doesn't find him attractive and they won't force themselves onto the woman.

However some men will moan, some women will moan.

Caillin maybe they see you as a person they could fall in love with. They get to know you and see your caring side, good cook, mothering nature, etc.
Whilst you are not prepared to risk your friendship for anything, he might be prepared to risk everything for a relationship.
No one is wrong in either case.

[CailinDana]

Arsenal, my problem is when men seem unable to have a friendship, that they develop feelings and that's it, I am no longer interesting unless I reciprocate those feelings. It tells me all about what they think of me - not as a person who they enjoy chatting to but as a potential mate who loses all value when it becomes clear I'm off limits.

[SolidGoldBrass]

Arse (don't mind if I call you that, do you?) why would these men be having sex with women they consider so unattractive? Are you saying that men are so dick-led and desperate that they will fuck anyone?

It's true that sometimes people refuse to accept that someone else is happy to have casual sex with them but does not want a committed relationship. However, if this person is honest from the start about not wanting a relationship, then s/he has done nothing wrong.

The still-persisting idea that sex is a currency which women have and men must get from them does a lot of harm - women are encouraged to make men 'pass tests' in order to engage in sex which encourages dim or desperate men to tell lies in order to engage in sex, which does no one any favours.

But the single biggest problem with the unattractive men who moan about being friendzoned is that they just can't accept that a woman is not committing a crime by finding them undesirable. She's not witholding sex to hurt or punish or test the men. SHe just doesn't fancy them.

[BillnTedsMostFeministAdventure]

And did you notice the swap from "friend" (or "friend zoned man", if you will) to FWB in arsenal's analogy?

[AskBasil]

Arsenal if you put "cailin" in front of your response instead of "AskBasil" that would make it clear who you are answering.

Your inverted example doesn't make sense because women do not routinely attempt to date men "out of their league", they've been socialised to doubt their own worth. It's a very rare woman who sets her cap at a man who obviously doesn't fancy her, while men who imagine themselves as gorgeous as Brad Pitt while scratching their beer bellies, are ten a penny.

[arsenaltilidie]

AskBasil I was answering Caillin with that comment.

Caillin why, especially here, are people encouraged to go NC if feelings aren't reciprocated?
Being nice doesn't not mean they are expecting sex.
People be a nice person AND have feeling for you.

SGB if we are going to go that route, women who have their FWB refuse to enter in a relationship with them because of 'I'm not looking for a relationship' is generally because they are fat, unattractive and or old.
These women are trying to get into a relationship with men above their league and it hits them like a ton of bricks when it happens.
They then moan they feel used, that the person doesn't want a relationship. In the end they tell everyone in earshot men are dickheads and they 'use' women for sex. All this because the men refused to enter into a relationship with them.

^ that's basically what you said about men.

[KoalaFace]

So true Bill.

KST showed grace and class when "friend zoned". She didn't start bemoaning how crap all Hugh Grant's girlfriends are and tell him she is better for him than Andi Mankytowel.

I've known both men and women who when their feelings haven't been returned have just accepted in graciously.

But I also know men who post things like that on social media.

[BillnTedsMostFeministAdventure]

Good point re blame. Kristen Scott Thomas didn't get all whiny in Four Weddings about Hugh Grant not fancying her.

Though of course she was Thin and has a mind above Shopping

[SolidGoldBrass]

OK, when a person is longing for and looking for a sexual/romantic partner, it's not uncommon to have some desired partner show no sexual interest and, sometimes, to say 'But I think of you as a friend.' And it's true that this is upsetting and frustrating. But, you know, tough shit! No one is obliged to fancy you just because you fancy him/her. It's perfectly possible for an acquaintance to like your company, appreciate your intelligence/sense of humour/shared interests but still not find you sexually attractive.

FFS it's happened to me enough times - a man I thought was utterly gorgeous, funny, charming, smart, and who was happy to chat to me and hang out with me would not want to have sex with me. I didn't like it when it happened, but I would just have to suck it up and get over it. And not blame him. Plenty of men experience similar frustration and hurt feelings when a woman refuses their sexual advances without being arseholes about it.
As to the point about 'friendzoned' men often being complete fucking mingers, there is a little bit of a cultural trope going on for women, though, that the answer to being 'friendzoned' by men is to Get Thin and Go Shopping (which doesn't work, any more than whining and begging does, if someone doesn't fancy you). Women are still expected to change their behaviour and appearance to please and attract men, whereas men are not - and so many of the type of men who sulk and tantrum about women friendzoning them aren't even prepared to have a bloody bath before going out to socialise. They don't seem to understand the basic concept of women's sexual autonomy - that women choose the partners they want for a variety of reasons. Bitter whiny men also focus intensely on women who are quite simply Out Of Their League - much younger than them, beautiful, popular, successful - without being able to understand that having nothing to offer other than 'niceness' is simply not enough, and then hate these women for wanting partners that they actually fancy.

[KoalaFace]

I was just thinking that Bill! It'll be like an unstoppable force meeting an immovable object!

I'd just like to reiterate that my meaning in starting the thread was that I really don't like the "friend zone" being used as a way of telling a woman she has been unreasonable to romatically reject a man because he believes he is better for her than the men she has chosen. No matter how many "dickheads" she has been with it is always an individuals choice in who they become romantically involved.

No man (or woman for that matter) has a right to say "Stop complaining about your love life! I'm perfect but you stuck me in the friend zone."

Sometimes all you feel for somebody is friendship. Totally platonic. And that's okay. It isn't some type of punishment for "not being hot enough"!

[BillnTedsMostFeministAdventure]

Ooh, toughy.

I agree that whining about being friend zoned is an unattractive trait. I disagree that it's correlated to physical ugliness or flatulence.

But I am dying to see what SGB and honey make of each other...

[22honey]

'No, the problem with women who whine about being 'friendzoned' is that they are fundamentally unattractive. Often, to be blunt, they are pig-ugly to the point of being smelly, unwashed, flatulent, spotty, fat'

I imagine posters on this forum would be horrified if the genders were revered in this one like above. It would be seen as a sexist, misogynistic post that is solely and shallowly focused on looks and appearance only, as is typical of men.

[22honey]

Cailin I think it comes down to the fact men don't have many avenues for successfully obtaining a relationship ie they find it much harder than women to find a partner so are probably more likely to get into a 'friendy' type of situation with someone they are attracted to and then have the hope it goes further than a woman would the same.

You could call this desperate, but to be honest I think some men are desperate for a relationship just like women. I dont believe its entitled or misogynistic for a man to desire a relationship and go out trying to achieve one. Women do it all the time.

Just because a man is attracted and interested in a woman he is supposedly friends with doesn't mean his sole aim is sex. He could be genuinely romantically interested and for anyone realising feelings arnt reciprocated would be painful, leaving the person needing to cut their ties to save their emotional health.

It would only be twattish of the man if he deliberately mislead the woman into thinking they were just friends when really he felt differently. That is awful behaviour, but some men do end up in a 'friendly' situation with women and are hoping it will turn into a relationship, this does not make them misogynists or whatever and plenty of women do the same thing. Many women have fallen for their gay friends and have had to sack the 'friendship' off in the end because it hurts too much.

[SolidGoldBrass]

No, the problem with men who whine about being 'friendzoned' is that they are fundamentally unattractive. Often, to be blunt, they are pig-ugly to the point of being smelly, unwashed, flatulent, spotty and dressed by their mothers. Yet they don't just feel entitled to own a woman, they feel entitled to the most beautiful women they know. They think that, if the attractive, popular, happy, smart girl who is on the same course as them or works in the same office as them, shows no sexual interest in them then she is a bitch and a cunt and a slut and failing in her social and moral responsibility because she owes them sex!

[22honey]

'Koala men complaining women only want dickheads is the same as women complaining men only want younger women.'

Yes, it is pretty much the same.

However, its ok for a woman to desire sex, find attractive men attractive, state their disappointment at a lack of a sex life, be annoyed if their DP is depriving them of sex long term, feel down that men arn't interested in them etc but when it comes to men them merely having a sex drive and a pair of eyes means they are 'entitled' and believe they should have 'access to women's bodies'.

God forbid the man makes a statement about not getting any sex or discusses attractive women. What a raving, disgusting and entitled misogynist.

[CailinDana]

Damned if he walks away from the friendship because she'll feel valueless
And damned if he stays because anything nice he does it's because he is expecting sex.

ArsenaltillIdie - what I was saying is that when women are friends with men then what they expect is friendship. If a man walks away because she isn't interested then that indicates the man didn't actually want friendship but was pretending to be friendly in order to develop a sexual relationship and when that doesn't happen the man just fucks off in a strop. If the man does something nice then the woman thinks he's just being nice. If he does something nice and then strops because the nice thing didn't get him sex, well that says it all doesn't it?

[AskBasil]

No, that wasn't why I thought you sounded aggrieved and a bit whiny, it was this one

"Damned if he walks away from the friendship because she'll feel valueless
And damned if he stays because anything nice he does it's because he is expecting sex."

You've actually ignored the comment I made in response to that and picked up someone else's comment to respond to and attributed it to me.

[arsenaltilidie]

Askbasil No it isn't..... Men whine about being friend zoned if they don't get the sex they feel they deserve from a woman they believe they have 'invested' enough money or time into. Women 'moan' about men not calling back when a man has said that he will call and doesn't. Both times the man is being unreasonable.

Sorry if you found my post felt like I'm aggrieved, have poor menz, woe is me!!! It's just a debate with different points of view.

Koala men complaining women only want dickheads is the same as women complaining men only want younger women.
Both sexes are bound to think, why not me!!
It's natural.

[Dervel]

I agree I think we're confusing several states of affairs by giving them the same label. Any guy pretending friendship for sex is an ass, but there are lots of insecure guys who lack confidence who will latch onto a female friend I think because a) they genuinely have feelings for them, b) it becomes a convenient barrier to having to go out and meet anyone else and risk getting rejected.

I've had several friends like that and the problem is primarily lack of confidence which is then compounded by the fact they have bought this societal notion women are something men have to "win". I picked that apart in my teens and it was bullshit then and it's bullshit now. Relationships grow from a complex and beautiful dance of intimacy that requires both parties to act and follow at different times, as they figure one another out until eventually they can act both separately as individuals but together as a couple.

FFS it's not rocket science if you are not receiving the cues you do not proceed either in action or in thought. There seems to be this crucial disconnect in how we build intimacy these days (and I mean intimacy and not sex here). Friendship is a perfectly valid platform from which to build further intimacy, but as with anything involving love has to be progressed by both parties at the same time or it's going to crash and burn.

Another crucial dimension that I am flabbergasted hasn't occurred to these pua types is that if you make solid and enduring female friendships you have a far sounder knowledge base in understanding social cues and appropriate behaviour than you would just listening to a bunch of men.

Reading this thread brings home to me how personally lucky I am. My friendship circles are fairly evenly spread between men and women. If I only socialised with men I fear I would be bored to tears.

[AskBasil]

"Damned if he walks away from the friendship because she'll feel valueless
And damned if he stays because anything nice he does it's because he is expecting sex."

What are you talking about? Why are you adopting that aggrieved, put-upon, Wah! Poor Menz! tone about this?

It's not women who are proposing that doing nice things or being nice is some kind of reward point system which leads to sex when you have collected enough points. It's men who have invented the concept of friend zoning. Women don't think their male friends are expecting sex when they do nice things, that's why they're so shocked and disappointed when men make clear to them that in fact, that's exactly why they were doing nice things, it wasn't because they were friends as the women foolishly believed.