The "Friend Zone"

[KoalaFace]

I'm sick of hearing about it.

As if enjoying a man's company and wanting to be their friend but not wanting to have sex with them is some kind of punishment.

[slug]

Apart from when it's used as an excuse to kill women of course

[rpitchfo]

The whole "friend zone" idea is just horrid. It's more damaging because it's seen as a playful notion and can't be misogynistic because that's where all the "nice guys" are hiding.

I blame scrubs.

[BriarRainbowshimmer]

Is "the friend zone" from Scrubs?

[rpitchfo]

it's the first reference i ever came across - it was hugely popular and they did a very funny skit on it - it was from that point that i began noticing people defining themselves by the term.

quick google also mentions friends as having coined the phrase in a 1994 episode about rachel and ross

[Darkesteyes]

quick google also mentions friends as having coined the phrase in a 1994 episode about rachel and ross


Yes this is where I first heard it . It was Joey to Ross "You waited too long to make your move and now you are in the friend zone"

[BriarRainbowshimmer]

How ironic! So in the original story, the man had placed himself in the friend zone by not showing romantic interest. And now it's women friend zoning men without even knowing that we're doing it?

[spence82]

Sorry slug I must have missed about it killing women. Is it earlier in the thread? I'm sure there are some horrible examples but I was just speaking from personal experience

[Fasttouch]

The dreaded friend zone is not about sex, or anti woman. It's about a man who really likes a woman who sees him only as a friend whilst at the same time keeps complimenting his qualities. "Your so nice wish I could find a guy like you".

Friend zoning can happen to anyone really but the men that really get stuck there (they can literally spend years pining) tend to be men who are too nice for their own good.

Eventually they do realise she just doesn't like you in that way, and they pretty much walk away from the friendship which in my opinion is the best thing for them. It is painful having feelings for someone who doesn't have feelings for you, so its best to distance yourself.

[ReallyFuckingFedUp]

Thanks Fasttouch, we all thought we knew what we were talking about...so it's good to have it explained in a way we can understand!

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

[slug]

Really spence? Did you not see all the news about the latest mass shooting women in the US who had the gall not to sleep with a man?

[KoalaFace]

I get what the friend zone is and how it started and that's all fine.

But I do hate it being used as a "stop complaining about all the arseholes you are sleeping with when you could be sleeping with a nice guy like me!" and "you women don't know what's good for you, you put all the nice guys in the friend zone!"

[Fasttouch]

Anything to help reallyfuckingfedup

[spence82]

I've been away slug so have had a niy of a news blackout. Just read it now and its awful. this is surely a case of someone with serious mental illness though.

[ReallyFuckingFedUp]

www.reuters.com/article/2013/11/29/us-britain-soldier-idUSBRE9AS0JH20131129

Why mental illness? What about the story above, same?

[spence82]

The two cases are totally different. The above link was supposedly done for religious reasons. The lad who murdered the poor girls has been in therapy since he was 9 according to the BBC article.

I aren't defending him but I don't believe the girls were killed as they 'friend-zoned' him. He was unstable and snapped.

[spence82]

But to be fair you probably have to be a little unhinged to murder someone in cold blood like those two did to Lee rigby.

[ReallyFuckingFedUp]

Yes, one was done to teach someone a lesson for religious reasons. One was done to teach someone a lesson for misogynistic reasons.

but you are happy to call out the root cause of the first story

Only disappointed I can't say that was my original thought. Had it pointed out on the other thread by Hakluyt who posted an article about "misogynist* extremism.

www.newstatesman.com/lifestyle/2014/05/lets-call-isla-vista-killings-what-they-were-misogynist-extremism

[slug]

But the basic point remains. He felt, as do many men, that they "deserve" women's bodies simply because they are men. Apparantly he didn't even talk to the women he felt 'friendzoned' him, they should have just , in his mind, naturally fallen for him because he was a 'Nice Guy'. While his was an extreme reaction, it's not uncommon for men to feel aggrieved when women don't see them in a sexual way.

These men, and there are plenty of them out there, aren't really interested in friendship. 'Friendzone' is just a term for women who dare to have agency and bodily autonomy. They don't really see women as 'people' all they want is sex and they believe that by acting in a friendly manner women will automatically want to sleep with them. Nothing else. It's a form of mysogeny that, in it's extreme form, gets women killed.

Elliot Rodgers may have had mental health problems, but he's not the only man who gets violent when he is denied what he thinks is his due.

[canrelate]

His response wasn't unusual, only the scale of it was. Most guys with his attitude would rape women as a form of revenge, he went out and killed them which is more extreme version of the same thing.

[arsenaltilidie]

Damned if he walks away from the friendship because she'll feel valueless
And damned if he stays because anything nice he does it's because he is expecting sex.
Women are complicated.

But some women on this forum have a jaded view on men.

As for the man in the news, he had serious mental issues and he needed help.
FGS he wrote graphic details about his and her bf.

[KoalaFace]

arsenal I can obviously only speak for myself but when I started the thread I was not talking about men who "walk away" when a relationship doesn't become romantic when he hoped it would. Or men who hold out hope that something romantic might eventually develop. Being attracted to people is natural and hoping it will be reciprocated is normal.

I was talking about the culture of men saying "You women moan about there not being any nice guys! But we're all over here in the Friend Zone!" Or "Stop complaining about the dickheads you have been seeing! You have no right to complain when you could have had me!"

It's the idea that some men are getting wound up that there are women who love spending time with them, value the friendship and who they are as people but not being interested in having a romatic relationship with them is like the men are being punished.

[AskBasil]

"Damned if he walks away from the friendship because she'll feel valueless
And damned if he stays because anything nice he does it's because he is expecting sex."

What are you talking about? Why are you adopting that aggrieved, put-upon, Wah! Poor Menz! tone about this?

It's not women who are proposing that doing nice things or being nice is some kind of reward point system which leads to sex when you have collected enough points. It's men who have invented the concept of friend zoning. Women don't think their male friends are expecting sex when they do nice things, that's why they're so shocked and disappointed when men make clear to them that in fact, that's exactly why they were doing nice things, it wasn't because they were friends as the women foolishly believed.

[Dervel]

I agree I think we're confusing several states of affairs by giving them the same label. Any guy pretending friendship for sex is an ass, but there are lots of insecure guys who lack confidence who will latch onto a female friend I think because a) they genuinely have feelings for them, b) it becomes a convenient barrier to having to go out and meet anyone else and risk getting rejected.

I've had several friends like that and the problem is primarily lack of confidence which is then compounded by the fact they have bought this societal notion women are something men have to "win". I picked that apart in my teens and it was bullshit then and it's bullshit now. Relationships grow from a complex and beautiful dance of intimacy that requires both parties to act and follow at different times, as they figure one another out until eventually they can act both separately as individuals but together as a couple.

FFS it's not rocket science if you are not receiving the cues you do not proceed either in action or in thought. There seems to be this crucial disconnect in how we build intimacy these days (and I mean intimacy and not sex here). Friendship is a perfectly valid platform from which to build further intimacy, but as with anything involving love has to be progressed by both parties at the same time or it's going to crash and burn.

Another crucial dimension that I am flabbergasted hasn't occurred to these pua types is that if you make solid and enduring female friendships you have a far sounder knowledge base in understanding social cues and appropriate behaviour than you would just listening to a bunch of men.

Reading this thread brings home to me how personally lucky I am. My friendship circles are fairly evenly spread between men and women. If I only socialised with men I fear I would be bored to tears.

[arsenaltilidie]

Askbasil No it isn't..... Men whine about being friend zoned if they don't get the sex they feel they deserve from a woman they believe they have 'invested' enough money or time into. Women 'moan' about men not calling back when a man has said that he will call and doesn't. Both times the man is being unreasonable.

Sorry if you found my post felt like I'm aggrieved, have poor menz, woe is me!!! It's just a debate with different points of view.

Koala men complaining women only want dickheads is the same as women complaining men only want younger women.
Both sexes are bound to think, why not me!!
It's natural.