Scouts & Guides

[TwoLeftSocks]

I've been reading and learning alot on this board lately, though not necessarily posting, but I was wondering if anyone would has any thoughts / could talk me though how having Scouts & Guides as separate organisations fits with feminism.

For reference I'm an Asst. Beaver Scout leader for a colony of 20 boys and two girls - I'd be more than happy to have a more even mix.

My understanding is that certain groups of girls can join guides when they wouldn't be allowed by parents to join a mixed organisation.

There is also an argument for girl and women only spaces.

There's nothing stopping you from having the mix you want within your beaver colony.

As BillnTeds says, there is an argument for having girl and women only spaces. This fits in just fine with feminism. Some girls will be able to spread their wings more easily in an all girl setting, than if they have to compete with boys (in reality or in their imagination). There is also an argument for all boy spaces, and there are Scout groups which cater for that too, or there is Boy's Brigade.

Either way, I think that taking part in a youth movement like scouts or guides is very useful for young people. As long as the group is active and doesn't pander to stereotypical gender roles, they can be great places to learn new skills and take risks safely.

Well, it doesn't!

Back in the day, these were really obviously sexist organisations. Even when I was a child, girls did 'hospitality' and 'needlework' badges while boys didn't.

What is really crap is that a big part of the reason some groups went mixed isn't feminism - it's simply there was either nowhere for girls to go, or girls wanted to be in the group they saw as 'better'.

I'd love to see the people in charge be explicit about any of this, but I'm not holding out hope.

I take the point about women-only spaces, though. Just hard to know what's best when it's such a big organisation.

I'm glad we've got the opportunity to have a mixed group as I think it's really important that boys growing up see girls as equals, and vice versa, I just don't know if that necessarily happens with such as spilt.

Chatting locally to friends with girls (we have two boys) there's definitely an attitude of 'girls go to Rainbows/Brownies, boys go to Beavers/Cubs', almost an automatic assumption. The two girls we currently have plus those in older sections are generally younger siblings of boys.

I don't know, maybe we still do stuff that's just seen as too 'boyish', or maybe I'm underestimating the need for 'girl's space', having really not enjoyed Brownies and Guides myself. I'd have joined Scouts in a flash if I'd been allowed.

I think there's a lot to be said for having all-girl spaces, as most girls of that age aren't in single-sex education.

And I think Guiding can be a space for feminism to flourish - there was that thing last year about Guides calling for more realistic representation of women in the media, and they do work with their members on things like body image. www.telegraph.co.uk/women/womens-life/10709521/Girl-Guide-body-confidence-badge-is-brilliant-but-so-terribly-terribly-sad.html

The kinds of activities you do probably vary a lot in practice and are dependent on the interests and abilities of the local leaders. So while my packs were very physically active and did a lot of camping and orienteering type things, there might still be ones which are more craft and hospitality oriented. Not that there's anything wrong with that per se, but if the Scouts don't do it then that's a pretty strongly gendered structure going on.

I'm all for a girls-only space, and for the activities and opportunities on offer being as wide-ranging as possible, and for it being a place for feminist ideals to flourish and be explored.
I wish Beavers, Cubs and Scouts had remained single sex too. So did my son.

Goblin have a look for Baden-Powell Scout groups then, they are still all boy

I can see the advantages of girls only and boys only spaces.

I think the crossover started because the two organisations were doing very different things and the girls wanted the activities available in scouts.

It was a long time ago but in the 70s I went to Brownies three times, was horribly bored and disappointed, and left. It was like something from 1950 - all we did was play grocery shopping, and really domesticated stuff. Even at 7 years old I knew that wasn't for me. I know they've changed but if they were 20 years behind then, how far behind were they in the 90s when girls finally had enough and beat down the doors to join the scouts?

"It was a long time ago but in the 70s I went to Brownies three times, was horribly bored and disappointed, and left. It was like something from 1950 - all we did was play grocery shopping, and really domesticated stuff. Even at 7 years old I knew that wasn't for me. I know they've changed but if they were 20 years behind then, how far behind were they in the 90s when girls finally had enough and beat down the doors to join the scouts?"

in the 80's i had a friend who went and they did cooking and needlework the 2 times she went so things hadn't improved in 10 years.
My Daughter is going to beavers

I was a brownie and loved it, very crafty and lots of games. My 6 year old DD goes to rainbows and loves it, all crafts and games, swimming, talent shows... My son, who is also 6 goes to boys brigade and guess what, it's all games and crafts!

It's OK CaptChaos, DS is now an adult and went all the way through from Beaver to Explorer with a series of fantastic local leaders.
DD tried out Brownies, found it way too gendered and left without wanting to move on to guides. Her best friend stayed the course, all the way to becoming an adult leader.
The girls that joined DS's group seemed to be looking for more variety and excitement than was offered to them by the local guides.

It depends so much on where you went to Guides, I think. I had so many opportunities to do things which didn't involve traditionally female pursuits, which is why I loved it so much, and this was during the 70's and into the 80's. We were constantly busy with things and all kinds of talents were brought out in the girls.

Guides stayed all girls for the reasons above and because in certain countries and it has to be.

Scouts took girls out of necessity, they were very short of members and very short of leaders. Only by reaching out to include mums and sisters were they able to survive.

Yes, DS was fortunate that both the guides and the scouting groups round our way were healthy and thriving for years, and seem to be very popular still with both children and volunteers.

I resent this whole rewriting of very recent history by making out that girls somehow beat down the doors or forced there way into Scouts. Guides is nationally massively oversubscribed and many girls cannot get a place. There are lots of areas with huge waiting lists for brownies and guides. Scouts and cub groups, on the other hand, were closing down because they were undersubscribed. That is why, nationally, the organisation made the decision to let girls in.

So if you want to do something feminist, become a guide leader and expand the number of girl only spaces!

'So if you want to do something feminist, become a guide leader and expand the number of girl only spaces!'

And offer exciting, diverse and challenging activities so that guides who want to do physically demanding and traditionally male activities don't have to look outside the movement to find them.

I can still be a feminist Beaver leader too though can't I almondcakes? :)

If you have boys sitting on a waiting list for Beavers/Cubs your concern will be that they girls have two choices to go to, and boys just the one.
My boys feel this is distinctly unfair.

TwoLeftSocks, I think that is an excellent thing to aim for.

I think the polarization reflects what has (regrettably imo) happened in society over the last few decades: boys generally are "the type" of boys who enjoy going to things like Cubs, or they're not. Girls on the other hand are perceived as being either pink-loving princesses who love arts and crafts and who would be horrified at the thought of going to cubs with the boys and doing anything rough and tumble (or their mothers would be more like). If they are not, they are labeled tom-boys and go to cubs (often to make a point).

Having a choice for girls, Brownies or Cubs increases this extreme polarization imo.

There doesn't seem to be much middle-ground for girls. I know in our area a lot of girls have started at Rainbows or Brownies but them moved to Beavers or Cubs because they want to go on the sleepovers and camping trips and get bored of endless arts and crafts activities.

I am waiting for the day when a boy that doesn't like football, camping etc and enjoys making things insists on going to Brownies.

What almond and goblin said!

That's pretty much what I came on to say. Girls did not beat down the doors of scouting, but they did pretty much rescue it from a numbers decline.

Guiding numbers are up, waiting lists are huge and I do know that some people have had poor experiences in the past. But that's not true for everyone and is much much rarer now.

I had a great time being a pyromaniac in guiding in the 90s and am a leader now.

We camp once or twice a year, activities over the last year have included:

High ropes
Sports
Non-alcoholic cocktail making and chocolate fondue
Climbing
Jacobs ladder
Canoeing
'Go for it's - activity packs selected and then organised by the girls themselves
Hiking
Craft
DVD night
Fundraising bring a friend discos (interestingly we don't ban boys at thses, but they choose not to bring them, we get plenty of female friends though)
Make your own pizza night
'Junk' fashion
Nightline dark challenge
Games (including; dodgeball, ladders, prisoners, king ball, memory card game etc..,etc...)
Outdoor cooking

All this isn't overtly 'male' or 'female' I don't think. My unit of 40 strong girls are very clear that they enjoy a single sex environment. I teach in a mixed school and my guides are definitely more empowered than the girls in my classes.

"Back in the day, these were really obviously sexist organisations. Even when I was a child, girls did 'hospitality' and 'needlework' badges while boys didn't."

This isn't really the case. Back in 1912, Guides badges included Electrician and Air Mechanic. The full list of today's badges are are:

www.girlguiding.org.uk/guides/gfibadge/badges/index.html
www.girlguiding.org.uk/Brownies/badges/

For my DS, being an Aspie who hates team sports, the scouting movement gave him a peer group, friends and an attempt at a social life.
The camping, wilderness activities and doing stuff without needing endless conversations and teams was of huge benefit to him.

I'd like to see all activities accessible and seen as genderless and offered to all who wish to participate.

As others have said, the Scouts let in girls to deal with the recruitment crisis in both leaders and children (but especially leaders).

Units are all going to be different. Part of guiding is that it is led by the girls, so perhaps you did go for two meetings when they did cooking and needlework. Did you see the rest of the term programme?

If you looked at my Brownies' programme over the last 2 years since I started as a leader, you'll see that we've done:

canoeing
archery
cooking over fires
a scavenger hunt in the woods
had a couple of visits from some engineering students to do workshops on water (making water filters) and energy (making wind turbines)
putting on a (non-competitive) talent show for their parents
science experiments
making pom poms for Sense www.sense.org.uk/content/great-sense-pompom-challenge-0
a visit from Guide Dogs for the Blind
learning how to fingerspell
games
discussions about how opportunities for girls are limited in some places of the world and what we can do about that www.girlguiding.org.uk/members_area__go/activities/activity_packs/girls_in_action.aspx
pack holidays
trip to a massive Brownie event at Alexandra Palace
celebrated Diwali making rangoli
a Scottish evening of ceilidh dancing and making shortbread
a visit to the local Institute of Astronomy

There are LOTS of girls on waiting lists across the country. If anyone is interested, go to www.girlguiding.org.uk/get_involved.aspx to find out more!