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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

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Original poster

Wicked Witch

29 replies

littlewaltham · 30/04/2014 20:15

So I started a thread in feminism today which lead to me reading some of the posts in this area on Mumsnet that I have previously not bothered to view but actually has some of the most stimulating and relevant discussions for me.

So I was asked to make a decision at work that involved redundancies. I gave my decision to an all male audience with in depth financial and operational data to back up my proposal.

I was warned that "that sort of action could brand me as the wicked witch"

I replied that if a man were to make a similar decision he was in danger of being branded as decisive, assertive and an all round bloody good chap for rationalising the work force and giving employees a more rewarding and sustainable future at the Company whilst offering NOT forcing redundancy for those that want to cash in and move on.

AIBU unreasonable at the jibe?

OP posts:

Original poster

littlewaltham · 30/04/2014 20:40

AIBU to be angry at the comment?

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EBearhug · 30/04/2014 20:51

No, it seems you're right to be angry from what you say. Unfortunately, workplaces are full of double standards like this, and it does get tiring pointing it out all the time.

I wish they'd at least read some basic feminism so they would come out with something less cliched. (I'm the "emotional one in the team", apparently, even though I am not the one who swore in a meeting when he got wound up...)

MuttonCadet · 30/04/2014 20:56

Yep, I'm the "wicked witch", "aggressive", "hard", all because I make decisions based on strong financial data and stand my corner.

I have accepted that in order to do my job properly these labels are inevitable in the current climate.

I do challenge them at every opportunity and work hard to ensure more junior female members of my team do not get a "reputation", but it's annoying - how do we force a change?

Original poster

littlewaltham · 30/04/2014 21:10

Good question Mutton. How do we. Its all under the daily radar nothing forward like saying you are female therefore it is a given you are less able.

Other comments over the years have been:

at an all male client dinner "Suffragettes movement? oh come on LittleWaltham you're the woman its your department to know the dates"

WTF? I know your total shareholder return and the legal steps you need to take to diversify into emerging markets.

Ebear lot of swearing from men. If I swore it would be shock and probably waved off with a derisory remark.

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Original poster

littlewaltham · 30/04/2014 21:15

Mutton

What do you not want your juniors to get a reputation for?

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MuttonCadet · 30/04/2014 21:21

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I am much more protective of my team than of myself. So when I hear comments about a junior member of my team being "Attila the Hun" (which happened today), I pulled the senior director who had made it and asked if that was because she'd had to make a difficult decision, which was contrary to the shop floor level feeling and had done so in a quick and calm manner with minimum hand wringing.

He agreed it was, and I asked if he thought that was a good quality or a bad one? And if a man would have been called Attila the Hun for a similar call?

I probably wouldn't have defended myself and just ignored the name calling.

SunshineBossaNova · 30/04/2014 21:36

Great response OP.

I used to manage a small team and was very fed up with suppliers on visits assuming my male second in command was my boss.

Original poster

littlewaltham · 30/04/2014 21:39

Mutton you are good to ask such direct questions and expect a response. how did the director respond to the question of a man being called Attila?

Another memorable example is "gosh that's putting your cock on the table oh no you are a woman should we say tits?"

Em no just say that's putting the reputation of the Company and finances on the line. What has it got to do with genetalia.

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MuttonCadet · 30/04/2014 21:45

Little Waltham, it's asking the direct questions that's gained me a reputation for being a ball breaker

However the director agreed that it wasn't a bad trait, but then cocked it up by saying he meant it as a compliment

I just said next time "great work" would suffice......

Original poster

littlewaltham · 30/04/2014 21:51

Sunshine sadly unless woman adopt a 'wicked witch' approach in the workplace we are exposed to subservient assumption.

If women consistently prove themselves to be efficient, reliable and just bloody well good at their jobs sometimes the presence of a male colleague who may or may not have some or all of those qualities is enough for the assumption of male authority.

It is very tiring to have to spend energy on constantly making your place because of your gender.

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Original poster

littlewaltham · 30/04/2014 21:53

Mutton I would be happy for you to be my manager female or not :)

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SunshineBossaNova · 30/04/2014 21:54

I totally agree littlewaltham.

I used to work in the charity sector and the sexism was mostly not out in the open, but it was still there.

EBearhug · 30/04/2014 22:01

Ebear lot of swearing from men. If I swore it would be shock and probably waved off with a derisory remark.

Yep. In a previous job, one woman got disciplined for the one time she said, "Shit!" at her screen, whereas male colleague on an opposite desk came out with that and worse every other sentence.

Our company is soon to roll out diversity training which will be compulsory for all managers. It will be excellent if it's well done, but I've no idea if it is - I haven't seen the course contents at all. They can do some training very well, so I'm hopeful. However, I suspect as with many of these things, it will have more impact on those who are already on board with it and want to improve things than the dinosaurs who really do need to think about what they say and do, and the messages they (unconsciously) give out.

Original poster

littlewaltham · 30/04/2014 22:01

Sunshine

I am not sure what is worse, in the industry I work in sexism is very much open (as you may have gathered by my posts). I do get to challenge it but possibly the hidden sexism is more damaging as its the being passed over for promotion, less pay with no way of comparing, issues that arguably have the most impact. Although the open sexist comments probably have all those hidden nasties underneath anyway.

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EBearhug · 30/04/2014 22:04

They've more sense than to make comments about suffragettes to me. I could give them a lecture, with dates.

EBearhug · 30/04/2014 22:05

I agree that hidden sexism is worse. I think there should be a lot more awareness about things like unconscious bias.

BillyBanter · 30/04/2014 22:07

Not necessarily. Presumably they meant being seen as the wicked witch by those being offered redundancy/living with uncertainty/worrying about their jobs rather than the bosses? I doubt the people feeling at risk of redundancy would see the man as you describe above.

Original poster

littlewaltham · 30/04/2014 22:08

EBear

Good luck with the Diversity training it will only succeed if it is a cultural and zero tolerance approach lead with a tone from the top.

Why is your Company embarking rolling out diversity now? Do you know?

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Original poster

littlewaltham · 30/04/2014 22:12

Take you point BillyB the potential staff deciding to take redundancy (no enforced job loss but defiantly a period of uncertainty) would probably view management as shit no matter their gender. But I do object to the sexist nature of the label "wicked witch" as I do not believe a man would have been warned that he would be a "wicked wizard"

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TheDoctrineOfSnatch · 30/04/2014 22:16

Reading with interest.

BillyBanter · 30/04/2014 22:18

Yes, I agree it is a sexist choice of words. He'd still be the baddie. It would have been better to say the same to you.

BillyBanter · 30/04/2014 22:19

Also, slightly off topic sorry, the people who will be left behind doing the extra work. I doubt they'll be happy with you either.

Original poster

littlewaltham · 30/04/2014 22:32

BillyB

In business it is necessary for decisions to be made to remain competitive, some of those decisions are uncomfortable when the personal impact to individuals is considered. Thankfully in this case it is voluntary but it may not be in the future at my Company or others. No individual that is employed to take those decisions should be made to be the 'baddie" and I would have been mildly pissed off at being labelled "baddie" but I do object to the 'Wicked witch" because I am female.

I am still yet to meet or hear of a "Wicked Wizard"

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Original poster

littlewaltham · 30/04/2014 22:36

BillyB

In short the work is diminishing there is dissatisfaction at lack of occupation which may or may not be more damaging to hang on than take a lump sum and move on. But we digress.....

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EBearhug · 01/05/2014 00:03

Why is your Company embarking rolling out diversity now? Do you know?

I don't know for sure. It's not bad at diversity in general, IMO, but there are pockets which are abysmal. There have been various programmes over my time there, which have been focussing on various things and diversity and STEM are hot topics at the moment. (We're a tech company, so STEM is very relevant, and there aren't enough girls/women considering tech careers.) I think it's partly down to the various reports over the last year or so saying that companies with more diverse boards and so on perform better, but for all I know, HR might have been dealing with a pile of grievances about harassment - that sort of news tends not to get out so much.

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