What we teach our children

[mnistooaddictive]

I have been considering this for a while based on interactions with my friends. They are all pretty much like me, both partners work and share responsibility for household jobs. There is no way they would let their husbands awY without cooking and cleaning.

Recently my car had a puncture and they were all amazed when I changed the tyre myself. Most of them have never changed a tyre and seem quite proud that they don't know how.
I believe that for a truly equal future it is not enough to teach our sons and daughters how to cook and clean, we need to teach them all how to change a tyre and wire a plug.
Am I that far out from the norm?

I agree, although the relentless march of technology and health and safety means that cars are tending to rely more on inflate-and-seal kits (an aerosol can full of air and liquid latex to plug punctures), avoiding even space-saver style tyres. So I guess changing a tyre will seem a bit anachronistic one day.

RE: Plugs, at least on many new appliances, aren't user servicable, they tend to be fully sealed: the fuse can be changed but that's about it.

Knowing how to wire a plug is becoming a dying art, only really useful for those* not willing to bin a 5 kettle that may as well be disposable!

• I include myself here.

Didn't know you couldn't use the 'pound sign' on MN. The above should be a "five pound kettle".

You can replace the sealant kits with actual spare tyres in most cars for a slight upgrade price. And probably should: using a sealant kit usually knackers the tyre.

I have a husband and two adult children; one girl, one boy.
We've never had male/female tasks in our house, but I don't really understand your point.
Have you got a handy list of skills you are thinking should be learnt by all?
Are you saying that we are teaching boys to manage tasks that were thought of as a female area, but that we are not skilling girls in the same way, to take on traditionally male tasks like putting up shelves and doing car stuff?
Or is that just your observations amongst your friends?

Why do you think that it is up to the women not to let the men "get away" without cooking and cleaning? Do you think those tasks are really women's jobs that they are just delegating to men?

Women's liberation isn't going to come when women learn to change tyres. However, men taking on the responsibility of household chores/childcare because they recognise they should be contributing to the household in this way, without reference to their female partners, will go someway towards liberating women.

My favourite is "Oh, my husband can't cook- I blame his mother". Infantilising men and woman-blaming summed up in 8 words!

Yep Martorana. My mum couldn't cook when she got married. She could read though. She got a cookbook.

I'm old enough to remember that changing a tyre was both hard work and fiddly. It's much easier nowadays with newer jacks, so the physical reasons for who might do it have changed because of tool technology.

Physical size (whether what is needed is large or small) is a relevant factor for some tasks, as it aptitude and absence of phobia (you wouldn't expect the person with vertigo to clear the gutters, for example).

The important thing to teach DC is that most peope can do most tasks. When working out how to decide within a family, then the best decisions are make when everyine considers all relevant factors. Watching healthy communication, decision making and conflict-resolution, and identifying when quirks can be accommodated and when they really shouldn't, are all much more important than the detail of who can reach the box without the ladder to reset the fuse quickly.

Mumsnet is full of women who seem to think that the possession of a penis makes it incredibly difficult for men to cook, wash up, put dirty washing in a basket (never mind the washing machine) and who are looking for ways to "teach" or "encourage" men to do these things. It baffles me. I could understand if they say their partners won't- but can't?

Or is it just that it's easier to think it's can't not won't?

Or is it just that it's easier to think it's can't not won't?

Not necessarily easier, but a kind of cognitive dissonance (is that the right phrase?).

Imagine if all the women with crap husbands (LTPs) suddenly realised that their partners did view them as less than equal, almost on a par with 'white-goods' style applicances. How gutted and soul destroying would it be to realise that your partnership isn't anywhere near equal? It's safer to protect your own self esteem by buying into the myth that "men can't", rather than "men won't".

Though I suppose a lot of men do sincerely feel they are in an equal partnership despite treating they're wives as junior partners. Sometimes it just takes a bit of awareness raising to realise the male-privelidge and alter behaviour accordingly.

Kisses - I didn't know that about knackering tyres. Useful to know.

Same here. For generations there has been on sexism in this family on either side and women and men can do just about everything the other does save breastfeeding. I am pretty handing with the DIY tools and deal with all the cars. My view has always been that if you can read you can cook. All the boys cook.

Personally I think its just boils down to being lazy if men say they can't cook/clean etc

Its not hard to follow a recipe or just learning through trial and error. Also a lot of people live away from home before moving in with partners so I'm sure they will manage to cook and clean then.

I totally agree Keepithidden. Women whose dhs don't pull their weight have to believe it's something like "they don't see dirt" or "it's his mother's fault".

Otherwise they'd be crushed if they thought "he's being unkind to me" or "I've made a mistake and married a selfish bastard".

This is often missing from those threads - we need to tread carefully around women who are, totally understandably, protecting their self-esteem. Shouting "I wouldn't put up with that" is too harsh.

To add - often a lot of useful advice is given on those threads, such as put him in charge of a whole task rather than trying to share it (e.g. dc's dental appointments are his responsibility).

Also some (not all) take a lot of pride in being the only one competent in the home. They chat to their friends and laugh at how useful their men are and they often want to moan but they don't want a solution which passes power to the man at home to decide how the surfaces of the kitchen are cleaned or to what standard. Just as some men like to joke to their friends about how their women spend all their money and earn none. I don't like any of that but it's very common. I have never had any problem with being much less competent than men or anyone helping with that in our home at housework or child care and the less I get to do of it the better. If my other half is skilled in dishwasher stacking - that's brilliant. If he put on a nappy different from how did it might well have been a better way - let him get on with it. If it's done worse than I would so what - better he does it and worse than I have do the dull stuff.

I have 2 daughters aged 18 and 14 and they seem to have latched onto feminism already. Eldest is looking to studying a degree in physics. She experiences sexism from teenage male students. Surprised that such young males have views from decades gone by. Rather hoped that attitudes to women would have moved on ??.

I think that my boys see a good balance with me and their dad, we both do most things (although I don't cook unless necessary!) and he has been sole parent for periods when I have worked away and vice versa.

Most things you only learn because at some point you had to do it for yourself - I had never cut the grass ever until I was in my mid 30s, because I'd never needed to yet I had fixed the tumble dryer and hoover when they broke. My dad would not let me drive (at 17) until he was happy I could change a wheel on my own and I was taught to change a plug as a youngster (my husband could do neither).

The most important tools are (imo) the knowledge of where & how to source help / guidance, and the skill of not being afraid to try even if failure is a possibility - also not to be afraid to ask for help even if you feel/look like a bit of an idiot doing so.

I guess the trick is to try and teach your children (of whatever gender) to do the things you think are most important. But TBH the really important tasks are 'female' jobs like cooking or washing clothes. DH and I do those every day, he's changed a tyre a couple of times in his life, I never have. Cooking is higher up my priority list than changing tyres, and I think anyone who likes eating food can learn to cook. For those who view food as fuel there's always beans on toast.

Choosie so sad that your DD experiences sexism from the teenage male students, I'm a scientist so obviously spent a lot of time in my teenage years in school science labs outnumbered by boys and I don't remember a lot of explicit sexism coming from the boys in my science classes, sad to think it might be getting worse.

I totally agree, I know women who bang on about equality all the time. They expect their dhs to do what was previously considered womens work, but they aren't prepared to do what was previously considered mens work.
Their dhs do MOT, insurance, check oil and water, and are generally responsible for the cars. Some do all the DIY and decorating too.

" I know women who bang on about equality all the time."

Really? How tedious of them. I don't know anyone who does that and I spend a lot of time with active and political feminists.

I don't drive, so my H takes care of all the car related stuff and he does all the DIY as he is a tradesman. We simply do the tasks each of us excel at.

That said, it is all too easy for husbands who do these types of "masculine" tasks to think they are contributing in a meaningful way. But they often ignore the day to day stuff.

Luckily my husband also cooks daily and does a lot of the food shopping. he also picks up after himself and clears stuff away. he is a very tidy person.

But the household tasks have mostly fallen to me. washing, cleaning (shared with the kids), gardening etc. I also do almost all of the kids activities, appointments. pay their school activities and deal with homework and school letters etc.

To be honest I feel like this division of labour is skewed because of his obvious skills in the masculine jobs. I simply can't fit a sink or lay tiles as quickly and as well as he can. it feels fair in terms of time spent, but unfair because my jobs are the boring child related ones and the ones which receive no praise.

When people come into our house they say "wow, love the new kitchen - Mr What is so clever!". they don't say "wow! you must have had to keep the kids entertained for hours while he did all that - well done!"

I also get very angry when people actually think their husbands are incapable of doing housework. I mean honestly... that plays right into their hands doesn't it?

It isn't a question of teaching them anything, it is a question of them seeing you doing it , everyday as a matter if course- something so normal they don't even think to question it. There is no reason why women can't look after cars, manage DIY etc. in the same way that men can cook the dinner, sew on a button etc.

'It isn't a question of teaching them anything, it is a question of them seeing you doing it , everyday as a matter if course- something so normal they don't even think to question it. '

^ This

Or if you can't do something, the reason is a logical one, rather than because you are female or male.

But I think, surely, even if you are constantly doing the most stereotypically 'masculine' stuff, you're only one example so you can't really beat yourself up about how children interpret gender roles. I could go out and train as a mechanic and spend my life covered in engine oil, and it still wouldn't prevent children from reading books and hearing comments.

I agree that the examples are badly chosen. Is emptying the bins a more 'blokey' job that's closer to as frequent as cleaning? I hear people on here saying 'ooh, doing the bins is a man's job'.

Whereas I do the bins and the car. It used to be a man's job when I was a child, because the bins were heavy, metal and the contents tended to be fairly heavy as we didn't have all the disposable packaging that fills up the bin now.
Since wheelie bins, it's a lot easier.