Another school uniform one - ties?

[LongPieceofString]

The trousers thread has prompted me to ask your opinions/advice.

DS is at a school where the new head changed the uniform and it has become 'compulsory' for boys to wear ties. This only applied to new starters this academic year so because he is not in the youngest year, he doesn't have to.

DD will hopefully be starting there in the next couple of years and it won't be compulsory for her to wear a tie, because she is a girl. I don't want the hassle of ties for school really (as they are really just something else to get dirty/lose etc).

But it is rubbish that they are compulsory for one sex and not another isn't it?

"Honestly, I think you are reading too much into it."

Amazing how often people say this when women are being forced to conform to male norms!

Smart office attire for women does not include a tie.

And why on earth should school uniform reflect "smart office attire" anyway?

They are not women. They are girls. Schoolgirls. Who are obliged to conform to school rules. When they get to adulthood, then they are women. What age are you talking about here? Sixth form or high school?

Of course they have to confirm to school rules. I thought we were discussing what those school rules should be,

And we are. But you keep referring to adult female forms of dress vs adult male forms of dress. And you are trying to apply adult norms to children.

I think that if the rules for girls and boys were different, you could find fault with that too.

Technical- so that means that girls have to wear something they won't routinely wear in the workplace so that boys get to practice what they will?

I really agree with this.

As for what they should be wearing why do they need to "practice" 15 years at being grown up anyway? Why not just let them wear a practical uniform for children as that's what the are and they don't work in a formal office anyway.

Comfy trousers and a polo top, same for everyone.. no ridiculous formal adult dress.. ties are as stupid as heels anyway.. what's that old saying about starting the day with tying a noose around your own neck?

A different issue entirely but the "practical" uniform is not popular among parents. They say/think it is and then move house to get their DCs into the "better" school with the posh uniform.

Schools with excellent reputations, the kind that people will move house for, very rarely have a polo shirt uniform. The schools aren't always better in reality but they give that perception, in part, because of the smart uniform.

Having worked in schools with a variety of uniforms and been there when a uniform has changed (in both directions) I can say that the more formal, strictly enforced uniform definitely has a positive impact on behaviour.

I think there is a difference from Primary School to Secondary. I prefer Polos at Primary, at Secondary I would prefer something that looks smarter (and Polos/Sweatshirts don't look really smart after a few washes).

But I don't really think its a feminist issue, unless they don't allow girls to wear trousers or something.

I think they should wear ties.
DD1 uniform is black and white (with a navy blazer)
In summer when they are not wearing a blazer/cardi they wouldn't look like they were in uniform without it if that makes sense.
The tie makes it clear it is a school uniform and I think both sexes should wear them.
Haven't read the other thread but if it was that girl should be able to wear trousers completely agree..
I was on the pupil forum 30+ yrs ago at my school arguing that girls should be able to wear trousers. We still weren't allowed -but they are now.
Same in catering college - I already had checked trousers but had to buy a white dress to wear with over the knee white socks (If nothing else they were dangerous). I argued then but it didn't make a difference ... I saw some students a few years ago and the girls were in checks!
So we are making progress in equality - I think girls not wearing ties if anything would be a backward step....

"And we are. But you keep referring to adult female forms of dress vs adult male forms of dress. And you are trying to apply adult norms to children.

I think that if the rules for girls and boys were different, you could find fault with that too."
Eh? It's not me keeps saying that kids should wear "smart office dress" and boys need to practice wearing ties because they'll have to wear them when they grow up! I don't think they should wear uniform at all, personally.

Agree with technical too...
DDs school has a new head who is enforcing the wearing of blazers, school shoes and no black skinny jeans.
It does seem to be having a positive impact on behaviour.
I do think primary should have a uniform (worked in an inner city one years ago with the 9-10 yr old girls wearing 'sexy' black lace crop tops and the like - uniform much better!) but more casual - polo shirts etc.

DH is on the board of (an American company) and NO ONE wears ties so where's the office that insists on men wearing ties?

They do for some mad reason wear long sleeve shirts and jackets even in the summer don't ask.

france has a good reputation for pushing their school students and no state schools wear uniform it makes no difference to their behaviour.

France does impose dress codes that we don't have in the UK though, plea. Didn't they ban headscarves, burquas and religious jewellery in schools? Or was that in the workplace only?

Artetas- how on earth is that relevant?

Because plea said france has a good reputation for pushing their school students and no state schools wear uniform it makes no difference to their behaviour.

So while France may go easy on school uniform, they still have a dress code of sorts, which they believe provides an environment more amenable to academic excellence. Which is one of the reasons that school uniform is seen by its supporters as a positive thing.

No, French schools do not have a dress code at all. The country has a law prohibiting the wearing of religious symbols in public. I don't think that's the same thing!

Don't you? Well, blow me down. We aren't going to get anywhere between the two of us, so let's drop it. We disagree.

That American office mentioned does have a dress code too.....

French schools do not have a dress code.

French law prohibits the wearing of religious symbols in public.

Honestly, I don't see how these two facts are related!

I don't think you can really majesty the comparison with French schools. Discipline in French homes is entirely different. Surely we all know by now that French children are perfectly behaved from the moment they leave the cradle!!!!! In areas where the majority are not French, culturally, discipline in schools is very poor

Agree martorana I have always wondered why insisting ANYONE wears a bit of material round their neck makes a positive difference to their behaviour. i reckon it's a pile of bullshit.

Unless as someone upthread mentioned it can be used as a noose

Ties just waste teaching time for both sexes, as school insists the teachers check they are neat every sodding lesson and sign pointless bits of card if they are untidy.

I don't think it's an issue. When I was a child, at all the schools I've been to boys wear ties, girls don't. Where I work we have a uniform, men wear ties, women don't.

Ties are male clothes, not female, so I totally understand why it's not compulsory for girls to wear ties.

Exactly Nocomet As if teachers haven't got enough to do.

I 'll never forget a film taken of a load of smart tie wearing schoolboys running after one of their 'friends' to beat him up. lovely behaviour