Feminism and the Alienation of Women

[Sausageeggbacon]

Reading the postings on here and discussing feminism elsewhere I am seeing large sections of women standing away from feminism. Or more particularly the vocal white middle class driven feminism.

There is a long article here that looks at the issues of why women of colour are moving away from feminism this is mainly though in the US/Canada. However some of the points remain relevant and show why inclusion needs to be worked at.

Also something that gets my goat in particular is this constant whinge about the glass ceiling. I hate this because in real terms how many women benefit? 200, 500, 1000? There are a limited number of top positions. I see so little in the fight for better conditions for women at the bottom end of the working spectrum. And those women look at feminism and see how little it seems to be for them and don't join in the battle.

3 million women supposedly read the Sun against the 300k or so who petitioned for no more page 3. Why are those 3 million not engaging with feminism? In my humble opinion feminism does not feel inclusive and the biggest chunk of people that could be engaged in the need for change are not being addressed.

We certainly should listen to the women most affected by whatever an issue is although bear in mind that some people, male and female, in some groups have been conditioned to accept sexism so may be saying I am perfectly happy and yet they are accepting second class citizen status, no right to leave the home without a man present etc etc and in that case I would add the objective filter to what they say that yes they may be happy but we still ought to change things for the greater good.

I am struggling with the fact aspects of feminism seems poles apart and the ordinary woman will listen to say Polly Toynbee and hear what she is saying what is does not relate to her day to day issues. Until we engage the widest possible spread of feminism and fight for common ground.

Reading how Marissa Mayer acted when she became CEO is all very well but for the thousands and thousands of women that are never going to be CEO how does it relate. Reading about what Gail Dines is writing about is all very well but we get an opinion which not everyone will agree with (maybe on here a lot will) but in the wider community it does not impact.

I am not sure there is an answer but some much noise comes from the radical end of the spectrum the gradual alienation of the average woman occurs. DD is at university but she feel no connection to a lot of aspects of media feminism. About the only one we both connect with is FGM but that does not get the media coverage it deserves whilst mention a lads mag and a dozen journalists will fire off articles.

And in this rambling perhaps that is where feminism needs to start changing rather than tackling subjects that will generate column inches because it is an excuse for some Editor to put in racy pictures we should have pieces that truly represent the modern woman in western society. Lets try to change things but evolution rather than revolution.

So what do you think should be done about it sausage? I agree with scallops that no-one leads feminism. Are you suggesting Polly Toynbee, Marissa Mayer and Gail Dines should shut up about the aspects of feminism they care about?

I wish I could hear more "noise" from the radical end of the spectrum in the mainstream media. Seems to me there are very few radical voices. The media prefers pretty young women talking about how much they are empowered by lasering off their pubic hair / stripping / page 3 / prostitution / [insert various other man-pleasing activities].

My daughter likes the Caitlin Moran books (young feminism) which I think is great. My daughters (20s) certainly self identify as feminists.

As for how educated women can help the less well educated we spend a lot of time going on about sexism at home, not just how to run the board. I have spent 30 years encouraging women to stop being a drudge at home and hand the mop and baby to their man and make things fair. You can share cleaning the toilet whatever your income level.

Feminism hasn't kept up. It's as simple as that, in my view.

I think we seriously underestimate the subtle but wholly persuasive backlash against it. The legal battles may have been won on a lot of fronts but all that happened was that technology opened up new areas of sexism that we hadn't been prepared for.

Easy access to social media and the internet gave men a whole new set of tools that now influence young girls and boys from a younger age than ever.

I think there's a reason that women generally only reflect after having children and it seems to come as a real shock to them to realise just how sexist the world remains. They then take stock and look back and re-evaluate their lives to date.

What isn't happening is younger women being aware that they are suffering from sexism. They don't realise that it was once different and simply see it as living in more liberal times. So they are influenced by images from the media, taught that their value and self worth lies in their appearance, they are told that education will open the world up to them and that it will be a world of equality. What they miss is that it's not normal or okay to be valued by their appearance, that they don't need to look like a porn babe, that they don't have to have sex, that they don't have to get involved in sexting, that they don't have to tolerate groping and sexual innuendo. Every message that they get tells them that their value as a young woman lies in being sexually attractive and sexually prolific. And young boys have easy access to porn, sad gits compare their sickness on the likes of p***net, big names speak out about prosecuting poor old men who didn't know better than to grope, rape and abuse women and children in the 70s.

It takes a brave and self aware young woman to be able to see the rape culture that she lives in and to speak out against it or in support of feminism. And why should she when she has it ingrained in her that women's liberation has been achieved. Why would an attractive, intelligent and self determining young woman ally herself with what the media tells her is the feminism of today - bitter, twisted, angry, man hating old harpies who couldn't get a man if they tried.

I think feminists have seriously underestimated how bad the backlash actually is. It's easy to point out the bigger issues but it's the everyday ones that affect nearly every woman and we can't get them to engage with it, not because feminism got it wrong, but because those with a vested interest have kept ahead of the game and have successfully created a perception that feminism is something that it isn't. I'm not convinced that we need to change what feminism is but only the perception of what it is.

It's not feminism itself that prevents women from engaging, it's sexism that does so and all whilst hiding itself under a cloak of progressiveness and normality.

I think all movements, including feminism, needs a wide range of voices. We need radical voices challenging and pushing the boundaries. We need those who talk about more "conservative" issues, and we need those in the middle.

I am fine with disagreement between feminists. Why should we agree? Feminism encompasses so many ideas that it is an impossible idea that we will agree.

I agree Grennie. I don't see why we should agree and it's IMO a waste of energy trying to reach agreement on certain issues. It's better if we align on the issues we agree on and respect each other on the issues we don't agree on.

And I think this call for feminists to agree, is a form of sexism. Nobody expects other movements like the anti racist movement or environmental movement to all agree on everything.

Quite. Like we're supposed to be nice, cooperative, nurturing, accepting of everything. We must heap praise on men for not being bastards and make sure we don't offend them. We mustn't criticise any woman for doing anything, anywhere, anytime (unless it's for breaking these rules). We must rise above threats and abuse, not hit back and always be on the moral high ground. Isn't that what we've been taught all our lives to behave as women in a patriarchal society?

I also read a great quote about how we are doing feminism and women no favours by pretending feminism is easy, or by trying to make it less threatening than it is. Feminism is political. To be effective, it has to challenge the status quo. Otherwise it is meaningless.

If that is the case Greenie, then presumably you have no concerns if many women are alienated from feminism, or deny that they are feminists.
Not all are called to the Cause, not all have the grit and heart and moral fibre required?

I thought Buffy made a lot of sense, but then I always do.

It is not about being elitist. And actually my experience is that women will support specific feminist campaigns even if they don't call themselves feminists. But IME, calls to make feminism more palatable to other women, just sell out and silence the most disadvantaged women.

Because the "safe" issues to talk about are usually those which affect women who are in a better situation. Or they are issues that affect women in other countries. Making things better for the most disadvantaged women in the UK requires real challenges to the status quo.

Personally I don't care if other feminists spend their time making feminism palatable to other women. It is not how I spend my activism

'I think all movements, including feminism, needs a wide range of voices. We need radical voices challenging and pushing the boundaries. We need those who talk about more "conservative" issues, and we need those in the middle.

Would you spend time and energy arguing with women who has a different stance to yours on an issue, or who prioritised something you were indifferent to, or would you let them be, and focus on what you believed in?
Like supporters who follow a particular team, put time and effort into that? Or spend a portion of your time attacking the supporters of a different team, even if their beliefs were not opposed to yours?

I am more positive than others on the thread. After 15 years of it being the bad F word women have started reclaiming it. I think we are in a good place and young women are claiming the word back, the everydaysexism project etc. if I asked my daughters what it is about they would talk about real day to day issues like who cooks the dinner each night (in my daughter's case her husband as indeed did her own father very often and my father did a huge lot in the 60s) and the topical issue for them being pay and women and getting more pay and promotions. I don't think they are so bothered about issues like how they wear their hair. Most girls their age who are active in sports rarely wear high heels. Most men their age (and indeed or my age to be honest of the ones I know) aren't very sexist at all.

We certainly don't all agree. I am a free market libertarian capitalist feminist interest in who cleans the toilet at home (equal sharing with men) and liking women to earn a heap of money, liking power and success and disliking the suggestion from some feminists that it is male to want money and power and to rise to the top. It can be female to in my world. Socialist feminists have a very different view. However there is plenty we can agree on - equality under the law still not 100% there, equal pay for equal work - still often not achieved; men being as likely as women to take leave when babies come, men not shooting their careers to p ieces by part time working leaving women to a life of poverty because they took that decision etc etc., no more criticism of women who return to work in weeks than there would be of a man... We have a huge long way to go to get equality but a lot of progress has been made in my life time and I am optimistic in the UK sat least (not in the Islamic states though and much of Africa and India)

I wouldn't attack other feminists, but of course I disagree with them. I don't bother if they simply have different priorities to me, that isn't an issue. But yes if they are arguing for something that I think is oppressive to women, I do say what I think.

Same here, particularly the point that housework and cleaning and childcare aer some wonderful higher calling women are lucky enough to be drawn to. That argument (my wife is a saint, does the hardest job in the world rubbish) is just used to tie women to the kitchen and deny them the chances to do interesting high paid work and free them from the home. however it is a feminist strand of thinking - that big bad money and work is terrible and we all need to sit around at home presumably eating the air doing nothing awful and male like earning money.

To some extent, people have to work on what they're best at. I don't think you can criticise an individual for choosing a particular area of activism, but you can point out issues across a whole movement, and if an area seems neglected, try to put some time into it yourself. Certainly what I like about this board is that there is a lot of focus on topics like birth, which I think tend to get sidelined on many other feminist parts of the Internet.

My DD and I have just had a very interesting discussion, she's 22 and a very confident feminist, very supportive of many issues including BF in public.
Had a little rant about the right of the woman to feed wherever and whenever, and then was asking me about a father she knew who claimed he'd helped with night feeds. Which she didn't believe could be true, and she was quite forceful about what a liar she thought he was.
She had no idea that it was possible to FF from birth if the parent chose to do so, and was astounded to discover it. We then had another chat about how choices can only be choices if you know what the alternatives are. Including FF from birth and why you might make that decision.
She's getting better at listening...slowly. very slowly. More comfortable storming the barricades though.