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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

FFS, do we have to start with the gender stereotyping crap so early?!

83 replies

TheBookofRuth · 28/01/2014 10:18

Warning: this is more of a long, rambling rant than anything else.

DD has just turned two and we had a birthday party for her. A female relative - someone who I regard as a strong independent type and didn't expect this from - started talking afterwards about how lovely it was to see all the little boys getting stuck in and having a go at everything and showing no fear, and how different they were from the little girls.

I wondered if she'd been at the same party as me, because what I saw was just as many girls getting "stuck in" as boys, and the two shyest, most withdrawn guests were both boys. I mentioned them to her, and she waved it off with "oh yes, but on the whole..."

Similar conversation with MIL recently, who was talking about her little great nephew (only just over one) being "SUCH a boy, he just stomps about getting into everything." At the exact moment she's saying this, her two GDs (my DD and SIL's) are "stomping about getting into everything".

I don't restrict the toys DD has on grounds of gender, so she has dolls and cars and everything in between. Her favourites at the moment are trains and duplo and anything she can paint and draw with. At the party I mentioned something about her playing with a truck and another mum raised an eyebrow and said she was surprised I let her play with trucks. Why?! I'm fairly sure it won't make her grow testicles!

Another mother gave her a present of long haired winged unicorns in various shades of pink. Kind of her to give her a present at all of course, but it couldn't be girlier if I dipped it in glitter. I know people claim that all little girls go through a pink and girly stage regardless of what their parents do, but this kind of stuff can't help, surely?

And now I'm feeling annoyed at myself for being disparaging about "girliness", because I get annoyed IRL when people look down on traditionally female pursuits and occupations as somehow lesser. I'm a SAHM and get enough of that myself, with people demanding to know when I'm going to "get back to work" and "get a real job", as if there's no value at all in my simply being a mum to my DD.

But why, why do people do this? We have these amazing little people with their own incredible developing personalities which are all so different, and from birth we try to force into them into these pigeonholes and make them to conform to stereotypes of "girly girls" and "proper boys". It's so sad.

OP posts:
TheDoctrineOfSnatch · 30/01/2014 22:58

I don't think it was just the user name, Taner.

KerryKatonasKhakis · 31/01/2014 00:38

Bunbaker I understand and agree that people do get upset/offended/angry or sometimes amused when they or their children are mistaken for the opposite sex but it still seems ridiculous.

Like you, my instant reaction would be to be put out if someone mistook me for a man... but why? I suppose it shows that you've failed at femininity...but why should that matter? Years of conditioning I 'spose, but that's another thread Grin

Everywhere wants to know your sex/gender and everything I fill out for DS (even library card) has a M/F box. Unless it's medical, no one needs to know (you could say everyone needs to know for when it comes to relationships/dating etc. but again, why, if you fancy them, you fancy them; if you classed yourself as a straight woman and fancied someone you thought was a man but turned out to be woman, would you then not fancy them?).

Splitting people into one of two groups from birth and bombarding them with rules of appearance and behaviour can't really promote any kind of equality, can it?

ThingsThatGoBumpInTheNight · 31/01/2014 01:58

Yes it does start early

Says she who took 4m/o dd to the nursery while I had a meeting with hv, to be looked at strangely when I handed over a blue bottle - the nursery worker sort of held it between finger and thumb at arms length as if it were diseased and said 'blue?'

Err yes dearie, no gender stereotyping here Smile
Fortunately her manager made noises of agreement so all was well.

But yes, it appears we still have a long way to go.

TamerB · 31/01/2014 07:43

I can only think that it was just the name,TheDoctrineofSnatch. She had name changed and she found that she was treated quite differently when perceived as a man. When she chose the name it had never occurred to her that it would be seen as male. We do have a long way to go! What hope for bottles in a nursery if people on here see 'commander' and think man?

TheDoctrineOfSnatch · 31/01/2014 07:48

I don't know her previous posting name. Tamer, but LordCopper and BertieBotts, for example, are more like male names amongst other FWR posters than "Commander". I think it was to do with post content also.

Minnieisthedevilmouse · 31/01/2014 07:54

I think it's a bit generational. Can't say my mates/peers are very into splitting girls out etc (we are all around 37) but older women, mil/DM etc do. Younger friends also don't seem to split it out.

Thus, will die out soon enough, so long as toy retailers catch up a bit obvs.....

TheDoctrineOfSnatch · 31/01/2014 07:56

Tamer, a quick flick through has found one poster on one relationship thread who thought commander was a man, apparently based on her defence of the man in the situation.

It wasn't an FWR thread, unless I missed it.

ShoeSmacking · 31/01/2014 07:57

I loathe gender stereotyping but even so the one very clear difference I do see and which infuriates me is that all (and I mean ALL) my friends with small boy children find they have to spend less time at home. My friends with girls, when weather is bad for example, simply stay home. Ds and his little boy friends would destroy the house.

Why is that? It drives me batty that ds who has pink toys, plays in "girlie" ways, has little girl friends who kick balls and do do-called boy things with him all the time and yet, on this one thing, I cannot escape the reality of what I see around me.

NorksAreMessy · 31/01/2014 08:01

Do you all know about this brilliant campaign ? I seem to remember it was started by some Mumsnetters

campaign

TheDoctrineOfSnatch · 31/01/2014 08:20

Hmm, but that's still a small sample, Shoe. And it's impossible to separate entirely your expectations that it will be a disaster from it being a disaster.

TamerB · 31/01/2014 08:26

There was only one who came out and said it, but she found she was treated like a man and she found her reception quite different from her other name when she was posting the same views.
An interesting experiment- I am half inclined to try it- same views with a 'name that is stereotyped as being male'.

Original poster
TheBookofRuth · 31/01/2014 08:26

Can't say I agree Minnie - two of the women I mentioned in OP are my age (mid 30s), and it's women my age who won't recycle clothes worn by big bro/sis for a different gender sibling, but insist on buying new clothes in the "right" colours.

And Shoes, I have a girl and we HAVE to get out of the house at least once a day no matter what the weather is like or she goes stir crazy. It's a bit like having a dog - DD has to be "walked" too!

OP posts:
PleaseJustLeaveYourBrotherAlon · 31/01/2014 08:31

I wouldn't want to be confused as a man because as an adult woman who has gone through puberty...I shouldn't look like one naturally. We are "supposed" to have breasts, hips, thighs, slim waists etc (although I really haven't got any of the above, but I have got a hormonal disorder)... And with advertising which fetishises these "ideals" you are actually meant to have a teeny tiny waist, mahoosive breasts, arse and thighs like Beyonce etc. Men have more facial hair, thicker chests the marks of puberty.

Little ones do all look the same to me. DD is frequently assumed to be a boy way more than people think she is a girl. I rarely correct unless I think I might run in to the person again and it will become awkward for them when they realise. There really aren't many sex markers before puberty are there, besides the obvious ones we cover in a nappy? So silly to be offended. It makes me laugh when I see bald baby girls sporting earrings, headbands with flowers big as their head.. You might at well get a sign that says "girl, girl here!".

DS is 1/3 to 1/2 time thought to be a girl despite being built like BamBam because he has "pretty" eyes and long lashes Hmm On the occasion I have to correct, or they realise by his name which is masculine, they usually apologize profusely... Confused I always say, "why, there isn't anything wrong with being a girl is there?"

*Males don't have eye lashes obviously (which we all learn from cartoons I think...and this is further confused by adult women wearing mascara)

TamerB · 31/01/2014 08:32

Maybe their child doesn't like it. My mother tried to get me to wear hand me down shorts from my brother. I refused.

PleaseJustLeaveYourBrotherAlon · 31/01/2014 08:33

DD can tear the house in two if I don't take her out... in minutes :(

PleaseJustLeaveYourBrotherAlon · 31/01/2014 08:35

Maybe a child tamer, but I think some people (like me) were talking about babies/toddlers and their clothes and paraphernalia. Fair enough if a child chooses to dress differently form an older sibling.

TamerB · 31/01/2014 08:37

It is a very short time though- mine had opinions by 2 years old.
I agree it is strange with babies but then people are strange full stop- a lot won't dress them in second hand which is madness IMO.

LittleBearPad · 31/01/2014 08:46

I don't think it's generational. My mum thinks I'm mad when I rant about all the pink toys. Take her to an ELC or other shop and she realises what I meant. When I was young it just didn't happen like it does now. Clothes were all sorts of colours as were toys.

I think the worst are many twenty/thirty something's. Bombarded by pink pink pink they feel compelled to buy it. A Facebook friends recent baby is swamped in pink.

PleaseJustLeaveYourBrotherAlon · 31/01/2014 08:48

Not taking advantage of second hand clothes when babies literally only wear them a handful of time (if that!) is madness. I bought some special things new for PFB I admit, but most of her wardrobe was second hand (and still lovely!) ds got all her old hand me downs though and one or 2 new bits..and this pregnancy I haven't bought anything new Blush actually feel a bit guilty. Might need to go out and by a new outfit..just so.

PleaseJustLeaveYourBrotherAlon · 31/01/2014 08:53

I don't think it's generational. My mum thinks I'm mad when I rant about all the pink toys. Take her to an ELC or other shop and she realises what I meant. When I was young it just didn't happen like it does now. Clothes were all sorts of colours as were toys.

Definitely I was moaning to my grandmother (69) and I was telling her how everything is pink glitter and not like that when I was a kid, and she said it was just because they didn't buy those things for us...but then I showed her some old catalogs etc for comparison. It really has changed.

I think older generations probably did tend to buy certain traditional toys for one gender.. So, prams for girls for example...but the pram..looked like a pram black or blue. Now it's a plastic tat pink glitter monstrosity.

Most toys used to be bright yellow,blue, red.

Original poster
TheBookofRuth · 31/01/2014 09:03

Yes, I was talking about newborns - someone I know mentioned wanted to find out what she was having so she knew whether she could reuse her DS's clothes or "had" to buy some pink.

Regarding the idea that little boys need more energetic play, I wonder if that's because from an early age this type of behaviour is encouraged in boys but not girls? There was a fairly recent study which showed that we behave differently with babies we've been told are male rather than female, even if we think we don't. We hold boy babies facing outwards towards the world and girls inwards to face us. We handle girl babies more gently and engage in more rough play with boys. If almost all of us are doing things like that from birth, it's bound to have had an effect by early childhood.

OP posts:
UptoapointLordCopper · 31/01/2014 09:35

Delusions of Gender talked about how we treat boys and girls even before they are born. Grin What people expect to do with their children and what people expect their children to do and be if they were boys or girls. And when asked to describe the kicking of unborn babies mothers who know that the babies are male describe the kicks as "vigorous", "strong" etc more so than mothers who don't know the sex of the babies or if the babies are female. Can't remember what studies there are, but they are in the book!

devilinside · 31/01/2014 09:55

I have one of each, treated them no differently as babies (firstly I am a feminist and secondly I have AS so don't follow social rules) Here's what happened: DD was more outdoorsy, much more fearless than her brother, always first up a tree etc. Now, she is the most sporty girl in her class.

DS was much more cautious, but started to do 'boy stuff' ie pick up sticks and try to hit other children, the minute he began nursery. this behaviour seems to be encouraged in boys. I also got told by a nursery school head teacher that the outdoor play area in her school was great for boys! could never quite work out why there was always an equal mix of boys and girls on the equipment, if this were the case

If head teachers are spouting this nonsense we are fighting a losing battle

OliveOil71 · 31/01/2014 17:19

The former Wacky Warehouse at Drusillas is to be redeveloped as a Hello Kitty house. Within this the facepainting, hairbraiding and tattoos are to be located within a 'Beauty Parlour' I don't know about you but I find this completely unnecessary and anachronistic. The target age is girls 3-8. Why does it have to be a 'beauty' parlour? Why not a Hello Kitty Studio or even Salon for example. Furthermore it separates the girls from the boys and there is to be no more craft. I emailed to the MD, Mr Laurence Smith, and his reply was 'I disagree with you but I can see you feel passionately about this so I am not going to persuade you otherwise'. I found this rather patronising. I posted my concern on their facebook page. Rather than replying and starting a debate, they removed my post. Poor social media etiquette. If you feel that they are not handling this well and that the name sends the wrong message to girls, please do get in touch with them. Drusillas is a zoo with environmental and conservation ethics, I believe it should have social ethics too and not jump on the 'beauty' bandwagon.