Slut Shaming/Common Sense whats the difference?

[HowlingTrap]

That really, thought here is the best place to post this, as a query.
Came across a lot of posts on tumblr and Slut Shaming today , whilst some of it obvious, some of it less so.

What draws the line past pointing out obvious issues than can arrive of being promiscuous and Slut Shaming,

a) Sleeping around needs to be safe , risk your & other people Sexual Health,

B) Sleeping with attached people, if you are aware of the current existence of a partner IS wrong and you should be judged for it.

C) Although sexual assault is never a victims fault, v. young girls may not be able to cope with the response flirtatious behaviour can bring them, (if I articulated that right)

ETC , How much of that and other views people take as granted verge on Slut Shaming, I'm a bit confused.

bear in mind I'm a woman who grew up in a religious background so some stuff will perhaps not be as obvious to me, I'm aware there will be an iceberg affect to this.

Can we stop using the phrase slut shaming for a start. No woman is a "slut".

Presumably this was aimed purely at women, not men. If so, it is all woman-blaming rubbish. All of them set up women (and girls too!) as the gatekeepers and responsible for sex. It is horrible misogynistic stuff.

a) Sleeping around needs to be safe , risk your & other people Sexual Health Yes but again why directed at women?

B) Sleeping with attached people, if you are aware of the current existence of a partner IS wrong and you should be judged for it. Interesting that they chose to look at those who are sleeping with cheating partners rather than the cheating partners themselves. Holding women to a different standard than men for a start. Examining female behaviour rather than male.

C) Although sexual assault is never a victims fault, v. young girls may not be able to cope with the response flirtatious behaviour can bring them, (if I articulated that right) So what they are saying is that girls are responsible for men's reactions. Men aren't responsible for their own reactions then?

I'm using the term in this context , not to someone personally.

Well its not meant to be aimed purely at women, the safe sex, cheating is applied both way's isn't it? Slut Shaming is used to insult women double standards etc thats why I phrased it why I did , apologies if it offended anyone.

I can Imagine a lot of mothers struggling with the second one, I wouldn't want my daughter out dressed like a lapdancer but consciously not to imply she is to blame for assault is a tricky line to tread.

"a) Sleeping around needs to be safe , risk your & other people Sexual Health"

Yes obviously everyone should be responsible for their own sexual health. This needs to be applied equally to men and women.

"B) Sleeping with attached people, if you are aware of the current existence of a partner IS wrong and you should be judged for it."

It is even more wrong if you are the attached person. You're the one with the attachment. You should be judged more harshly if you are attached. But usually you are not, particularly if you are male.

"C) Although sexual assault is never a victims fault, v. young girls may not be able to cope with the response flirtatious behaviour can bring them, (if I articulated that right)"

Where to start with this one. A) Men know that very young girls may not be able to cope with an escalation of sexual behaviour and they therefore moderate their behaviour accordingly. B) young girls or anyone else, are not responsible for other people's response to them.

What response are we talking about here? Sexual desire? Kissing? Rape? Because everyone is responsible for their own sexual desire and this C) strikes me as being most on the victim-blaming spectrum with the pretence of being motherly (use of the word cope) etc. Young girls shouldn't have to cope with sexual assault, sexual assault is a crime and men shouldn't be subjecting anyone to it, young, old, able or unable to cope or anything else.

But if you had a teen daughter would you want her going out dressed obscenely? probably not, how would you articulate that without sounding victim blamey?

Most men in this day and age are labelled as 'cheating scumbags' though aren't they? I see it more on here than IRL posters saying even if she knows the wife etc 'She didn't take vows she is innocent' WTAF? that's a step too far surely, but 'she stole my man ' is a ridiculous and outdated view.

Etc, does anyone get what I'm trying to articulate?

"But if you had a teen daughter would you want her going out dressed obscenely? probably not, how would you articulate that without sounding victim blamey?"

Do you think if I send my daughter out in jeans she's less likely to be raped? Not how it works, I'm afraid.

"Most men in this day and age are labelled as 'cheating scumbags' though aren't they"

Really?!

I get what you're trying to articulate but I don't know what you're hoping to gain from this? I wouldn't want my DD to be dressed obscenely because I hope she'd have better dress sense (my own is impeccable ) and actually even at the age she is already she is clearly quite creative with clothes and has a good eye for what goes together, what suits her, what impression clothes give etc. But if she did go out dressed obscenely, I might point out that her outfit could be described as obscene, but I wouldn't fear that she would be sexually assaulted because of it. I wouldn't have any extra fears about the possibility of sexual assault IYSWIM, because I know she could be assaulted wearing her school uniform or jeans and a t-shirt. It's not the outfit that causes the assault, it's the attitudes and behaviour of the person who decides to assault someone.

With regard to the married man thing, I agree that everyone is responsible for their own behaviour. I personally don't think it's a moral or morally neutral choice to sleep with someone you know has a partner so I wouldn't use the word innocent in that context. However I think when women come on and start ranting about the OW while leaving their unfaithful partner's behaviour unexamined, there is a massive transference of anger and blame going on there. In the end, the OW hasn't promised love and loyalty to anyone while the person cheating, has.

Yeah, not sure about most men being labelled cheating scumbags.

I think some women want to believe that most men are so that they don't have to face how bad their cheating scum bag is. If they can pretend that's what all men are like, then they can minimise the betrayal.

a) Sleeping around needs to be safe , risk your & other people Sexual Health,

This has to be taught to boys as well as girls, surely?

B) Sleeping with attached people, if you are aware of the current existence of a partner IS wrong and you should be judged for it.

Couldn't agree more.

C) Although sexual assault is never a victims fault, v. young girls may not be able to cope with the response flirtatious behaviour can bring them, (if I articulated that right)

How about instead of teaching our daughters strategies on avoiding assault we teach our sons not to assault?

But if you had a teen daughter would you want her going out dressed obscenely?

I'm not sure what you mean by that so can't answer. Sorry.

Most men in this day and age are labelled as 'cheating scumbags' though aren't they?

I don't think so. I've had a fair few relationships and have never cheated.

So if it is aimed at men and women why is it being called "slut shaming"?

How about instead of teaching our daughters strategies on avoiding assault we teach our sons not to assault?

Is there some reason we can't do both?

No reason at all Jo.

But it appears we don't.

If we did, 1 in 4 women would not experience sexual assault, up to and including rape in her lifetime.

That's good, the 2 seemed to be being presented as either...or.

The only problem is those strategies. I don't actually know any that I can teach my DD whereas I do know strategies to teach DS.

They tend to be "don't go out in obscene clothes" which is rubbish because as discussed, it's not clothes that cause sexual assault.

And "carry a tazer" is illegal.

"Assume every boy you meet is a rapist" is considered man-hating and unfair to men.

So the only strategies I can think of, are the same ones I will advise my DS to keep safe - don't drink too much, keep mobile phone safe, keep money safe, keep an eye on time so you don't miss last train etc. But they're not specifically useful against sexual assault, just any assault.

The only thing she can do against sexual assault is not to be in the same space as a potential assailant. But that would mean never going out and never going to school, for example.

Unless you've got any specific useful strategies JothHot

Is there some reason we can't do both?

No, not at all. It's much better to teach our sons to not rape/assault than it is to teach our daughters to fear/distrust men. The latter hasn't worked because it focuses on the wrong area. It is men doing the raping and it's a fact that it doesn't matter what the victim is wearing or how drunk she or he is, if a man is hell bent on asserting his power then he will. If we teach our sons that this is a disgusting abuse of privilege then we might make headway.

Yes, that's what I mean how can we prepare our children for 'the real world' but at the same time no reinforce out dated bordering on sexist teachings.

obscenely means very, very overtly sexualized clothes my mum used the old tac aswell as 'not everyone wants to see that, some people might find it disgusting'.

I hate the phrase slut shaming too.

I think teaching girls to recognise red flags, teaching them that it is fine to have boundaries, and teaching them that it is okay not to be nice, are better ways of trying to protect them. Most girls and women are raped by men they know. Often when we are young, we don't see the red flags we do when we are older. Or we are stuck on being "nice", and don't walk away when we should.

Also make sure your daughter knows she can always ring you to get you to come and get her if she feels unsafe. It doesn't matter how inconvenient it is. You will trust her feelings if she feels unsafe.

I actually think teaching girls that the incidence of rape is so high, is important. And teaching them that rape includes coercion. How can anyone try and protect themselves, if they don't know the danger?

Yes actually teaching girls the red flags to look for in men would be a useful thing to do.

HowlingTap here's a website which might be useful to you:

yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com/2009/11/24/predator-redux/

This will link you to other stuff also useful, but you could do worse than have a read of that and discuss with your DD when appropriate. I think it's really important that girls realise that sexual predators are not scary men in dark alleys, but their peers. There will always be one who shows the red flag behaviour, but we are encouraged to ignore it and minimise what it tells us. Not minimising it, recognising it as the danger it is, would be a useful thing to do.

I think that the red flag thing also touches on where PSHE fails kids, It spends all the time teaching what the clap is and how to put a condom on but doesn't spend time teaching people to be decent girlfriends,boyfriends etc and how to spot a potential abusive relationship.

Yes, my DS has had sex education from primary school onwards (he's now 14) and not once has even the word "consent" been mentioned in his lessons.

Which is piss-poor.

Hmmmm, no wonder kids turn to Porn for the birds and the bee's when everywhere else is reluctant to do so.

about the menz - for a change

That's a really interesting article, Basil. I think what Grennie says about the red flags becoming more visible as we get older is also very true. Another thing that is informative about that link is how the comments (for once!) strengthen the theory of the article with real life examples. I particularly like the examples of how bystanders can help younger women/girls deal with the red flags.

My own daughter gets the bus home and often, if she has had to catch a later bus because of an after school event (so it may be dark, but about 5 in the afternoon), is targeted by much older men with unwelcome comments or sitting too close to her etc.She is even in school uniform! It has astounded me that more bystanders don't stand up for her and tell these men where to go!

Good article, sassy.