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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

what does feminism mean to you?

26 replies

LeBFG · 12/11/2013 13:14

After following (lurking mainly) on this board for a while, I've seen the threads where posters ask 'what is feminism?' 'do you describe yourself as a feminist?' etc.

For various reasons I won't go into, I've been recently asking myself, 'what does feminism mean to me?'. I wondered how well my top three important feminist issues corresponds with those of other posters. So in any case here are mine.

  1. Violence: on women across the world (FGM, endemic rape, trafficking of women)
  1. Work: workplace and maternity issues to incl. equality, culture and law
  1. Education: to expand the penetration of women (and men) in the areas of society from which they are traditionally excluded (for example, women would be maths, engineering, power sports such as weight lifting etc, men would be the caring professions notably with young children). And very importantly of course, access to education in some parts of the world.

Underpinning these issues are a desire for equality and fairness: that women get the same overall deal as men basically.

How about you?

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Blistory · 12/11/2013 13:40

I want nothing more or less than for a baby girl to start life with the same rights, expectations, hopes, dreams and desires as a baby boy.

Sadly, I don't believe my generation will achieve that. I don't believe the next generation will achieve it unless something is done to abolish the rape culture we live in.

Feminism, of whatever flavour, gives women a voice. It gives me the courage to use it.

LeBFG · 12/11/2013 15:02

Would you define those ideas under liberation of women or equality, Blistory?

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Littlebagoflaughter · 12/11/2013 15:04

I think equality, justice and respect sum it up for me. I like these words as they are what we should be striving for in all aspects of our society. Since having a baby boy I've particularly been thinking about feminism in terms of how I want to bring him up, I want him to be a man who unthinkingly sees women as equals and respects them and sees it as his duty to actively uphold their rights alongside them (though in a perfect world this would not be an issue by the time he's grown up!) I think the three issues you highlight are really important but are essentially symptoms of the fact that many people still think women are inferior to men. We really need to tackle this basic mindset and that is why I'm a feminist and proud to be one!

Mitchy1nge · 12/11/2013 15:11

"expand the penetration of women (and men)"

sorry sorry

Grennie · 12/11/2013 15:12

I view feminism as about the liberation of women. The issues that concerns me are, male violence against women and children, objectification, poverty and porn/prostitution

OneMoreChap · 12/11/2013 15:17

Treating people equally in terms of pay, conditions and behaviour.
Recognising the impact of body fascism on both genders.

Bit troubled about the trans issue, but that's a bit surbodinate to treating people equally.

Recent ads in which we're treated to male gaze of woman's bottom in tight jeans nudging card door shut, or skimpy clothing in Corsadyl ads winds me up, too.

Incidentally, don't necessarily see myself as a feminist, but a lot more that than MRA/MGTOW and so on.

Grennie · 12/11/2013 15:22

What do you mean the trans issue chap?

BoosterBondageSapphire · 12/11/2013 15:27

Feminism has made me more aware of my own conditioned behaviors as well as insidious male privilege which we encounter daily. DH and I work hard to show DS there is no such thing as gender roles or expectations only equality,respect and taking responsibility for your own actions.

I may not always articulate my argument well and I am also guilty of saying things which on second thought are sexist in ways I would never have previously considered but I am always learning,always evolving and hopefully setting a decent example for my DS.

OneMoreChap · 12/11/2013 15:27

There's a very active - I understand - trans community who feel excluded by society in general and particular some MtoF trans feel excluded by part of the feminist community.

In general, I think you should treat people as their preferred gender, but it's a bit hard when some people want to be included in F spaces and talk about cis privilege.

LeBFG · 12/11/2013 16:38

Feminism has made me more aware of my own conditioned behaviors as well as insidious male privilege which we encounter daily. Yes, I agree with this one. And I shall also add behaviours of others.

For example, I live a bit isolated from family and recently visited my parents - was extremely shocked at my dad's talk which was pretty aggressive against women and he set about positively recruiting my DS to his male club. I was shocked because the language and intent are not something I hear everyday where I live and also because I never remembered him like this. He must of always said these things and I do remember the words just not the strength or meaning behind them...It also made me realise that I must also have internalised these messages which makes me sad.

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Blistory · 12/11/2013 16:39

I don't know whether the aim is equality or liberation. One would lead to the other but if pushed to put one first, I probably don't think you can have equality until women are liberated and that has to be in every sphere of life.

As for the trans issue, I remain unconvinced that it's a feminist issue. I think it's a trans issue and will quite happily support it but not as a feminist cause but one in its own right that deserves consideration of the issues that affect them specifically.

thegreylady · 12/11/2013 17:10

I believe that men and women are always equal though sometimes different. I believe that every human being deserves equal reward for equal effort. I believe that no one should be prohibited from doing anything because of gender. I believe your body is your own and only you decide how and why someone else can touch you. I believe a marriage is between equal partners, equal financially, socially and emotionally. Sex should be mutually enjoyable it is never a right. I believe in mutual respect, joint parenting and fair division of labour.
I also believe that if a bag is heavy because my body is weak or because I am old then I will accept help if it is offered. If a door is held open or a seat offered on a bus I will accept gratefully. I would also perform the same courtesies for a disabled or very elderly man or a pregnant women.
An ideal world is one in which everyone is equal and no one is 'more equal' than anyone else.

FloraFox · 12/11/2013 17:46

I struggle a bit with the equality / liberation point. I believe equality is problematic because the world is man-shaped and equality can so easily become false if it means that women must live as men to achieve the same outcome. Liberation seems a bit OTT these days as we have removed a lot of the formal restrictions on women as a class but the word is more accurate for what I would like to achieve which is freedom from patriarchal cultural values and restrictions. I would consider the outcome of that to be substantive (rather than formal) equality but a lot of men (and women) would perceive that as "special treatment" and not equality. I generally prefer the word "liberation" over "equality" because of this. For example, a lot of thegreylady's post could have been written by either a feminist or an MRA but meaning very different things.

So I would say that feminism for me is about the liberation of the female sex class (women) from the constraints of patriarchal culture. While I believe that women's liberation would have some benefits for some men (maybe many men) who do not like the role foisted on them by society, I'm not going to pretend that men as a class will benefit from feminism. They will lose privilege (as they have partially done already) and they will resist further loss of privilege (as they currently are). The "good enough" men hanging onto senior jobs because half of their competition can't enter the race will not give up this privilege easily.

BoosterBondageSapphire · 12/11/2013 17:52

Really well said FloraFox - sometimes I find myself more exasperated at the denial of male privilege or the reluctance to give it up than the brash sexist cat calls or the nasty "little women" comments.

Probably because its going to be the hardest thing to change, I know a lot of men who wouldn't tolerate hearing a woman being harassed int he street but I also know a lot of men who would struggle to relinquish "power" as they would perceive it as a loss of status.

Blistory · 12/11/2013 18:00

Status - now that's something else I wasn't aware that I didn't have. And yet men at the same stage in my profession seem to automatically have that. Never been considered the Head of Household either on the domestic front and yet, that status is again automatically awarded to men....just because.

Suelford · 12/11/2013 18:00

Equality.

whatdoesittake48 · 12/11/2013 20:52

what does feminism mean to me? - everything.

But I wish for the day when there is no need for feminism and it is an outdated concept - something consigned to the history books.

20 years? 50 years? 100? Never?

Feminism for me also means arguments with the people I love dearly, because they just don't "get it" or refuse to get it. My principles actually mean sacrifices I never want to make. feminism or being a feminist isn't an easy choice or path to take.

feminism is hard. it involves making conscious decisions to be harder and more pushy than you ever want to be. To insist on respect, to push for change, to put yourself in the firing line (literally in terms of employment) to be questioned and to be made to feel idiotic, over the top or just plain difficult.

is it really worth it - considering the gains we make are painfully slow. I think so, but it isn't something men have to concern themselves with and it leaves little room for personal growth. we are so busy fighting we fail to rise.

So, for me feminism means hardship. it isn't an easy path.

CailinDana · 12/11/2013 21:38

It means annoyance frustration anger and disappointment for me at the moment. Only in the last few years have I become aware of how omnipotent male priviledge is and how I had accepted it. It's hard looking at the world with fully open but it's impossible to close them again.

LeBFG · 13/11/2013 09:29

Some very warm responses. I'm pleased as I see plenty that corresponds with my ideas. I've been feeling for a while that 'feminism' (or perhaps the MN version of feminism) isn't for me even though at the same time I've had my eyes opened as it were.

Interesting reading.

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Blistory · 13/11/2013 12:27

I think the problem with the FWR is simply that it caters for all. So you have relatively light discussions and heavyweight discussions going on at the same time and I think somewhere along the line, that creates a dynamic on here that can be difficult or challenging to follow.

If I go on a dedicated site about feminism, then I understand that it's expected that I already agree with certain concepts or values. The discussions quite often centre on a theoretical point and involve exploring it to its extremes and can be disturbing as it forces me to look at and examine things I may not have previously considered. So, for example, the idea that I might shave my legs as part of social conditioning, causes me no upset whatsoever whereas the idea that my sexuality may be as a result of social conditioning is one which I initially have a knee jerk reaction of rejecting because it's challenging something I'd always taken for granted. The same goes for discussions on PIV, separatism, white privilege etc.

Sometimes on here, it can seem almost trivial that we're discussing Pink Kinder eggs immediately after a discussion on FGM. But I happen to think that the trivial discussions are equally important and not particularly trivial because they operate as a starting point for a lot of women. If a poster can't relate to FGM, DV, rape, abuse etc, they may well think that it doesn't happen to them so it's not really a major issue whereas if you can discuss equal leisure time or why girls don't need pink toys, you can see the lightbulb moment happening and once that starts, you become aware of how insidious things really are.

I don't think it's wrong to assume that if you're posting on here, then you have an interest in the rights of women so it becomes frustrating when it becomes a thread turns to 'what about the men'. It happens so frequently that you can't help but think it's deliberate. And it doesn't happen to posters who are finding their way and ask that in innocence or are prepared to participate in a discussion about why the focus is on women on here. There are so many posters willing to explain basic concepts but it does require an open mind otherwise it feels like an attack. And it is an attack - it's attacking ideas and principles which have gone unchallenged, it's attacking the idea that your life lived as a woman may not be typical for other women, it's attacking the comfort zone where a patriarchal system would like us to remain unquestioning and unthinking. And more importantly, it attacks the idea that women shouldn't have a voice, that they should shut up and listen.

And somehow that all gets translated into feminists wanting something more than equal rights.

I can't count how many times I've had to explain that I don't hate men, that I don't want men to be punished or penalised, that I simply want to focus on women for the purposes of the discussion and yet I'm told time and time again that I can't be for women without being against men. I can support a breast cancer campaign without it detracting from a testicular cancer campaign. I can support both equally but if I'm on here, then I'm going to talk about the one that affects women. That's something that the regular posters just get without explanation and yet I have to explain it to others instead of focussing on the issue at hand.

I know that FWR has a reputation and I'm one of the posters who have been accused of putting women off feminism but in reality, it's not the posts that are upsetting, it becoming aware of the raw deal that women get that is upsetting and when you realise that, as a woman, you often unwittingly contribute to that, it's a painful lesson to learn. I frequently have a 'duh' moment on here when someone points out that my actions or words are anti woman - how can they be when I am a feminist ? But when I can bear to be honest with myself, I can discuss it on here without being attacked by other feminists and more often than not, a critical analysis shows that I am being anti woman. So I learn, promise myself that I'll do better and move on.

Sometimes however, it's easier and more cathartic to simply say sod off than type all of the above, especially when you know your chain is being yanked quite deliberately by the MRA types.

LeBFG · 13/11/2013 12:47

Well I can definitely relate to 'what about the men?' as I'm sure I would ask that early on Blush but can now appreciate/be bored by what seems to be, as you say Blistory, an almost deliberate sabotaging of threads by questions like this.

I don't really remember your posts specifically Blistory but I think for me there a few posters whose names come up a lot and certain threads which, yes, challenge my thoughts, but also alienate me too. I know the point isn't to seduce me however! I just have been thinking, is this really a movement for me? Am I proud to say I'm a feminist?

I would post more but am busy. Thanks for the reply Blistory

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grimbletart · 13/11/2013 14:09

For me feminism has meant that every day, every month, every year I have gone through my life doing what I want to do not what someone else tells me I should do. And it has give me the freedom to say "fuck off" to anyone who tries to tell me different.

grimbletart · 13/11/2013 14:09

give = given

WildEyedAndCrafty · 13/11/2013 14:13

FloraFox: I believe equality is problematic because the world is man-shaped and equality can so easily become false if it means that women must live as men to achieve the same outcome.

Great post Flora, but this in particular sums up my beliefs on why liberation is so necessary before any version of equality can be reached.

LineRunner · 13/11/2013 14:13

I suppose it means a philosophical freedom.

Though not a real one.

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