The overprotective Daddy culture. (No ones good enough for my little girl)

[bumpandkind]

Wasn't sure where to post this but it's something that annoys me greatly and I haven't seen it discussed on here before. (Apologies if it has been).

I was just listening to the new Robbie Williams song. For those of you who don't tune into shit FM it's the good Mr Williams singing to his daughter about how the world is a big scary place full of evil men and he as her Dad will protect her from all this forever.

I may be over sensitive but this smacks of subverted mysoginy and possession of women/girls within the family. It is still very socially acceptable that a good Dad is overprotective of 'his little princess' till the day she marries her prince, (fully approved by Daddy of course).

It's something I never experienced as my Dad has always respected mine and all my sisters right to make our own decisions ( poor mans outnumbered!). However my DH was recently relived when we had a Ds not a Dd as in his own words ' I couldn't cope with looking after two girls, I'd be so worried about her'. This comment did not go unpunished!

So opinions please?

Really interesting thread!

Mildred yes, you're right. This song and the 'overprotective daddy' persona taps into some very deep seated patriarchy.

It's way more nuanced than that 'nothing to fear' statement, but there's something in it. Every time anyone of either sex behaves decently and respectfully to anyone, a child seeing it gets a message. If it's consistent, the message is reinforced - dad treats mum with respect, his sons get the message that that is how you treat your partner, his daughters the message that that is the behaviour you should expect. Of course it works for mum's behaviour too, and boys should get the message that THEY deserve good treatment too, but the point is it counters the prevailing message from society. The flipped gender thing is why I steer clear of doing the 'aren't men hopeless' thing around DD (or at all, as I am a SAINT ) - it's not something I want her to learn, and DH deserves better.

It is all just a little help though, and of course nothing you do in any sphere of life equals 'nothing to fear'.

BTW, final straw for removing one person from my Facebook was a 'rules for dating my daughter' post. His daughter was about 6 at the time, and I just found it appalling in ways I couldn't begin to articulate. This thread has made me think about it - he was actually an ex-boyfriend, and I strongly suspect his attitude stemmed from the kind of teenage boy HE was, way back.

I hate to say it and I hope I'm wrong but this is one of the reasons I suspect there is something dark within men's sexuality. They know it but they don't want the women the love to know it, or be hurt by it. Or maybe it's something they have been taught is dark? (like what though, that actually isn't?)

It's an awful way to think so I hope I'm wrong.

We have two daughters and sometimes my husband gets worried...but he says it is because he knows how many men are horrible and disgusting towards women and girls. It isn't anything to do with property or possession - just an awareness he has that so many members of his sex can be downright evil towards females.

SS you could be onto something...my husband seems to think it but he vocalises it too. He often says how much he dislikes men as a class.

It's better than having a dad that doesn't care.

DontCallMeBAby, yes it is nice to be nice. but ...

"his sons get the message that that is how you treat your partner, his daughters the message that that is the behaviour you should expect.

"his sons get the message that that is how you treat your partner,"

well that is good, as far as it goes

"his daughters the message that that is the behaviour you should expect." - and where does that lead them? Stamping their feet and saying "up with this I will not put!" and "you are a cad and a bounder, no gentleman in my family would treat a woman the way you intend to treat me". And where is this going to get her?

And even if this were to work it just seems so ... accepting of division. Dividing women into wheat and chaff. The wheat who have learnt to put their feet down and receive respectful love and have happy lives; and the chaff who haven't learnt and... by implication don't matter.

I know no one here really thinks that there is a subset of women which doesn't matter but all this jolliness about what decent people we all are comes across a bit like that.

Then again I am in a very dark, despairing place at the moment. If there are wheat (skilled at relationships) and chaff (not skilled at them) I am definitely the latter which is why I am taking all this to heart so much.

Sorry to hear you are feeling so rubbish, mildred. Your posts recently have been fantastic (small comfort I know).

I'd just add to all of this that it is really important to teach girls (and boys) that they don't have to be in a relationship. It is perfectly possible to be a happy, interesting and useful human being who is single. If there wasn't so much emphasis in our culture about the importance of pairing up it would be much easier for women not to put up with crap treatment from men (and indeed vice versa).

For decent, liberal, left wing men who loathe mysoginy they also feel like they're swimming against a tide of shit too.

I know for my dh when he worries for foster dd it's not in any way about ownership and control (I know he wants her to love/be loved and have a good intimate life) but instead it's because he comes from a place of knowing that teenage boys are very knob obsessed/blow job obsessed/porn obsessed - as a teacher he sees how badly so many teenage boys are brought up and the massively damaging effects on intimacy pornography has.

So obviously he does his best to have a culture of respect in his work place and amongst his students but of course at home and privately he still worries for and try's to help me protect dd.

The way we do that is by talking to her about protecting herself and by keeping herself safe.

Thanks, MooncupGoddess. (Is that a job title? Do you do presentations in schools and workplaces with powerpoints headed: THE MOONCUP: an overview by Mooncup Goddess"?)

I haven't hear the son, but I presume these are the lyrics:

You're gonna meet some strangers
Welcome to the zoo
Bitter disappointments
Except for one or two
Some of them are angry
Some of them are mean
Most of them are twisted
Few of them are clean

Now when you go dancing with young men down at the disco
Just keep it simple
You don't have to kiss though

Don't waste time with the idiots that think that they're heroes
They will betray you
Stick with us weirdos

For all your days and nights
I'm gonna be there
I'm gonna be there yes I will
Go gentle through your life
If you want me I'll be there
When you need me I'll be there for you

Don't try to make them love you
Don't answer every call
Baby be a giant
Let the world be small
Some of them are deadly
Some don't let it show
If they try and hurt you
Just let your daddy know

Now when you go giving your heart make sure they deserve it
If they haven't earned it
Keep searching it's worth it

For all your days and nights
I'm gonna be there
I'm gonna be there yes I will
Go gentle through your life
If you want me I'll be there
When you need me I'll be there for you

Go gentle to the light
I'm gonna be there
I'm gonna be there yes I will
If all your days are nights
When you want me I'll be there
Say my name and I'll be there for you

It's a bit simplistic, I'm not keen on the 'let your daddy know' line. Nor the implication that relationships are the only goal in life. But overall it doesn't sound that different from the 'I would walk through fire for you' sentiment many parents express about their young children. And actually a lot of the statements are about her learning to stand on her own two feet in relationships and not put up with shit. Ok, again a bit of a simplistic message, but I get the impression he was probably quite a shit to women in the past so I get that's top of his list of advice.

That said, I have real problems with the "I'll kill any boy who goes near my daughter" school of fatherhood. Often typified by Bruce Willis- in interviews, in Die Hard (or one of those), in his Friends appearance. Chasity balls in the US literally make me feel queasy.

I also agree strongly with what has been said above about the risk of it effectively becoming victim blaming. That if you didn't take the advice about how to behave, it's your own fault when you end up in an abusive relationship.

Pretty much, mildred, though I prefer to think of it as a vocation

And of course it ties into those creepy purity/chastity balls in the USA where 12 year old girls get dressed up, attend as their fathers 'dates' and publicly swear to be a good little virgin until they marry (and to hand over their virginity to their father for safe keeping). Creepy as fuck if you ask me.

This is heavily associated with more extreme Christian fundamentalism in the US and is very much out of the mainstream.

Yes!! OMG, I've wanted to start this thread for ages. Thank you, OP.

I find it really really frustrating. We were watching an episode of "My Wife and Kids" which, okay, is pretty old now, but it was classic - they are SO ridiculously protective of their daughter dating and the dad is shown "hilariously" intimidating her boyfriends etc. Yet, when their son is dating, he's all "Aww, yeah, go on son."

Similarly in an episode where they go on holiday their daughter is not allowed to wear a bikini on the beach in case men lech at her, but when their son is leching on every girl he can see they just laugh at him.

It really, really pisses me off TBH.

Mildred, I have no illusions that it's no more than good as far as it goes. Still better than nothing.

Perhaps it falls into that fraught category where trying to teach children (or anyone else) how to look after themselves risks looking like victim blaming - either of those who weren't taught those 'lessons', or who were and didn't learn them.

I'm aware that my use of language is probably dubious in its own right, I'm struggling a little!

Sorry to hear you're in such a dark place.

mildred, it isn't meant to come across like that. It's not that girls who "know what to expect" will never find themselves in a less than healthy relationship, or that "girls who don't know" are responsible if they do, but it is a phenomenon that women who have low expectations of men are more likely to accept bad treatment earlier on in relationships and perhaps get more sucked in.

It's definitely not a cure-all and it's crappy if the onus is put onto girls this way but I think it would help some girls... it would have helped me. I think that most people go through some crappy relationships before they figure out what's right and good and what they like, but low-level abusive behaviour and sexist behaviour is so excused in our culture and accepted almost - I mean, look at Twilight! Look at the reaction to anybody splitting up on your facebook timeline! Popular culture! Music! Comedy series about dating and relationships... it's all over the place. It's worth it to offer an alternative view from the home where girls will really take it in and internalise it without even realising really.

I'm a bit shruggy about the lyrics to Robbie's song. He's just telling her to avoid men like he is/was.

I am, however, fascinated by the "I'll break your legs" type of Daughter Protector Daddy. I would love to hear their opinion on whether feminists hate men.

A little cliché and over-hyped as more common than it is but it does exist.

I have daughters but I don’t think I am overprotective, they are teenagers now and they know I am OK with them expressing their sexualities as they choose, with partners be they male or female. I am concerned for their safety, of course, but I cant make snap value judgements on who they choose to be with, I have to trust their opinions and support them if something bad happens.

I think the kinds of fathers you talk about probably fall into two groups (and some mixed) the first one would be suffering a type of pre-cursor to 'empty nest' syndrome, ie 'I am no longer the most important male in my daughters life'. The second type I would call 'closed down' with psychological problems that go all the way back to the playground at age 7. They would thump a son on the shoulder and say 'be a man' (go out and get laid) only to be terrified for their daughters, because the types of sons they would raise are the ones they most fear their daughters encountering, because to to that father those types of men ARE men. The soft spoken male violin player who plays chess and smiles at his daughter with love in his eyes would be near incomprehensible.

These fathers are essentially admitting there is something inherently wrong with men and boys.that they can't be trusted.what on earth does that say about how they feel about themselves? My oh has often pointed out how bad men can be...but doesn't class himself in that category. they can't all be right.
Do all men secretly hate other men? Is that why they are so violent to each other? Just an extrapolation....

christ on a bike
. i do not think this is a fathers domain

have i respected my childrens decisions on the parteners they have ? i don't say or do anything overtyl ofcourse - that would be rude - but no one is good enough for my children

i say that as a mother and i think that this is not only a fathers domain - in fact feminists, i think there is complete equity in this regard

Well yeah we all feel like that

But there is a definite trope. It's in pop culture and I am seeing it more and more in RL as my friend's daughters grow up. DH tells me his mates often mention it.

But yeah no one will be good enough for my kids and like you i'll probably shut up about it too

I'm not sure there is equity. What I do see (and hear) the most is mothers being protective of their sons and men being protective of their daughters, but not so much the other way around. Is it nothing more than projection ? Though, I'm not sure the mothers who do that bring quite so many threats of violence into the equation, or at least none that hold any weight ( reference the other thread about men benefitting from other men being violent).

Yes, the thing men do that women don't tend to is the intimidation and implicit or explicit threats of violence. That is a tired old trope in fiction (Hell, I love Jed Bartlett in WW, but even he rolls it out) and it seems to be surfacing in real life too.

My kids are only young, but I think it is quite sad to be of the view that no one will be good enough for your child. I hope I don't feel like that when they are older. Certainly from the perspective of the child, my parents loved and respected my choice of partner, and yes, they think he's plenty good enough for me. Sure, I can see my children making choices of partners I don't think are good enough for them. But I hope I don't start from the point that no one can be.

I'm a grumpy old judgy pants though penguins there's no point fooling myself.

Still i have a couple of years to work on myself I suppose