College Women: Stop Getting Drunk

[FreedomOfTheTess]

I'm afraid to say, this is the exact title of an article on Slate.

College Women: Stop Getting Drunk

Emily Yoffe basically says, in her article, that college women who get drunk become sitting ducks to these sexual predators. (While the article is focusing on the issue of young women in college (university), I take the view an attitude such as Yoffe's can be applied to all women).

She does say, "Lets be totally clear: Perpetrators are the ones responsible for committing their crimes, and they should be brought to justice. But we are failing to let women know that when they render themselves defenceless, terrible things can be done to them."

So what Yoffe is really trying to say there is...

I'm not a rape apologist, I do think rapists are bad, but if you stupid drunken girls didn't make it so easy for them do it, well you may not have been raped in the first place*.

• Because of course, sober women don't get raped.

Oh yes, you're not rape apologist Yoffe, not at all.

I'm off to find a brick wall to bang my head against.

TBH I don't think you ever need to worry about it - I just can't see a time when a man will ever automatically assumed guilty of rape. On the contrary, I think often, women are automatically assumed to be lying about rape that has happened to them.

I think there is a lot of non-consensual sex around. And that we have to get better at educating our children to know that they must always always always ensure that whatever they do to someone, is with that person's consent. But at the moment, I think that uncompromising message of no sex unless consent is absolutely unambiguously there, is quite rare. People make too many excuses for non-consensual behaviour. That woman in your story Beatrix, prob doesn't think there's anything wrong with her behaviour. Probably no-one's ever told her there is.

There are some very complicated scenarios around consent and who's more incapable than whom and all that stuff. But the fundamental point it always comes back to is telling women not to do stuff. Where's the "Men, drinking too much is strongly associated with you making a bad judgement and committing a sexual assault, so don't drink too much" campaign? Precisely nowhere, because this is, again, for women to worry about and for men to carry on as previously.

I'm totally fed up with the don't drink, lean in, lean out, shake it all about woman hokey cokey we're being told to do all the time.

FWIW I have a son and a daughter and I'll damn sure be telling them both not to do anything without consent and not to drink themselves into a state of oblivion just because it's not cool and I won't clear up the sick - not because if they do they'll be contributors to a rape.

There should be a campaign, aimed at all young people, telling them "drinking too much is strongly associated with you making a bad judgement and committing a sexual assault, so don't drink too much". That is certainly the message I am drumming into my sons.

Plus the message that I expect them to look out for their friends who may have drunk too much. I have also asked them what they would do if they saw a man attempting sex with an unconscious or incapable-through-alcohol girl - their answer - they would intervene, and if they felt unable to intervene, they would call the police or call dh or me. I have told them that if they are looking out for the safety of a drunken friend, and that means calling me from somewhere they know they shouldn't be, they get a pass on that, because I would rather they felt able to ring me if they needed help for someone.

Basil

That woman in your story Beatrix, prob doesn't think there's anything wrong with her behaviour. Probably no-one's ever told her there is

Cant speak for the kind of upbringing she had. She seemed perfectly normal. I have met her and laughed together - in his company about the story - she didn't deny any aspect of it - it was all part of the 'mating game' it seems. It certainly didn't occur to her that she might cause any upset - and she was quite right. Interestingly, she herself was an Malaysian national and come to the UK as a student. I really don't want to say any more about her than that for fear I might start to identify her or embarrass others. The point is that she wasn't from a sink estate in some decaying inner city.

There is a an old legal saying that - that the law doesn't concern itself with trifles. Puts me in mind of two old judges ignoring puddings put on their plates - another way of putting it - 'the eagle does not catch flies'.

But this isn't about the law is it, it's about acceptable behaviour. Most rapes do not make it as far as law because they happen within an accepted parameter of behaviour - rape and sexual assault are just about socially accepted in most instances. It's only when there's extra violence that most people get upset about them. When there isn't, a lot of people don't even recognise that they are rapes.

It would probably not be considered in the public interest to prosecute this particular woman in this particular case, because no-one's upset about it and therefore there's no case to answer. But it is certainly in the public interest, that people be educated that this sort of behaviour is generally not acceptable. It might be trifling as far as the law is concerned. It isn't trifling as far as behaviour is concerned. The more people understand that in general, respecting people's boundaries unless they've given you specific permission not to, is the default mode, the better.

Also I don't know why you're assuring me that she wasn't from a sink estate.

Lack of respect for other people's boundaries isn't a class issue IMO and IME.

Basil

Re: Sink Estates. I accept that it was wrong and careless of me to put it in those terms. I apologise.

It should (but sadly doesn't) go without saying that the only "fault" lies with the person committing the crime. But that doesn't mean we should make it easy for them.
When I drink, I take more risks than when I am sober. I am less likely to be able to spot danger signs, and everyone seems like my new best friend. Mostly I have got away with it, but sometimes it was close. I don't drink when I go our for the same reason that I don't drink before I drive- it affects my judgement.

Glosswitch on form on this here

Another aspect of this which is quite intriguing is.....why college women? Is it because:

a) it's not so bad for non-college women (ie potentially lower class women) to be raped?

Or

b) college women, being (presumably) quite intelligent, are usually too clever/sensible to put themselves in vulnerable situations where they might be raped unless they are drunk so they 'should know better than to get drunk at all,' whereas non-college women are 'bad girls' who get drunk a lot anyway so no point trying to appeal to them?

I had a chat with ds3 yesterday, and asked him how he'd feel if he was so drunk he passed out, and he came to, and found a woman taking advantage of him sexually - would he consider it assault, would he contact the police?

He said he didn't think the police would take him seriously, they'd just laugh. It is maybe not relevant to this debate, but I wonder how many men and boys would have the same worries about reporting a sexual assault (whether from a woman or man).

Completely forgot to post the link on Lisak on college campus rapists - here it is:
www.middlebury.edu/media/view/240951/original/

It's just an on-line essay but it has references at the end to his peer-reviewed stuff.

I wonder how many boys/men worry about being sexually assaulted by women full stop SDTG.

the knee-jerk response to this article is odd because it isn't what I read in it.

no, you are never responsible if you get raped.

but yes- swilling booze until you fall over and vomit is disgusting and a revolting abuse of good health. Drunk is ugly in both genders.

have some self-control, don't be a sheep. If you can't have fun without being drugged out of your mind, perhaps it is time to get a life.

So it doesn't matter that a 16 year old boy believes the police wouldn't take him seriously if he was sexually assaulted, scallops? If that attitude is commonplace amongst men and boys, then maybe there are assaults that are going unreported - which would be a bad thing, I think.

And before anyone accuses me, I do NOT think taking sexual assaults on men and boys seriously means we should take sexual assaults on women any less seriously.

I have a horrible feeling that you are saying men and young men are so Neanderthal that they would just think, "way hey, I got some sex" and no man would ever feel violated if someone (male or female) did something sexual to them without their consent.

Or does it not matter because it is happening to men - or even one man?

Of course it matters.

But no one is telling young men and boys not to drink in case they get raped. (Or more to the point, in case they rape.)

I think it's reasonable to assume that the average young man waking up with the average young woman assaulting him, will not feel the fear a woman being assaulted by a man will feel - on average, he'll be bigger and stronger than her and not have been socialised to feel responsibility for her behaviour or a need to placate her or not hurt her feelings. He will also not be blamed for her behaviour if he tells anyone afterwards and instead of being condemned as a slut, he will be congratulated as a stud. I think if my DS is ever assaulted by a girl, he will probably be better able to defend himself, than my DD if she is ever assaulted by a boy. Which doesn't make it any better, but let's not be disingenuous and pretend that it is exactly a mirror image in terms of physical, emotional and psychological experience.

I think your DS is right, no one would take him seriously which is not a good thing. That is largely a result of patriarchal attitudes to sex and gender policing of boys' feelings so if he wants to change that, he should work with feminists to tear down those attitudes.

Interesting though this whole issue is, what has it got to do with girls being told not to drink in case boys rape them?

It was an issue that arose from the way the thread went, Basil. I think you are right about the fear a woman would feel, and that a man probably wouldn't feel that.

And I am telling my dses to avoid drunken sex altogether - and whilst I am not telling them to avoid getting rotten drunk because they might get raped, I am telling them to avoid getting drunk because of all the other risks they'd be opening themselves up to.

As specialsubject said! being rotten drunk is a really bad idea - bad for your health, unattractive, and very risky behaviour. I do not, and never have supported the message 'don't get drunk so you don't get raped' aimed at college women or indeed any women.

Wow SDTG you read a lot into that post! I certainly did not mean anything you said. I meant, in the context of this thread that men don't worry about being sexually assaulted, certainly not by women. I don't think they even get round to worrying about whether they would be believed if they report. It is something women consider before they are even assaulted or raped.

There is no evidence that they wouldn't be believed. In cases of DV men are more likely to report, more likely to report sooner and for less and more likely to be believed. So I don't see why that would be any different for sexual assault.

Scallopsgreat

In cases of DV men are more likely to report, more likely to report sooner and for less and more likely to be believed.

I'd be very interested to see the source for this comment. In my experience, dealing with divorces, men don't generally make such complaints to the police.

Of course you do. There you go

Interesting, I'll give it a go - something for you to read then too

Wikipedia. Of course.

Yes - the results from the British Crime Survey show significant differences from the data from Police and CPS - higher in the former than the latter.

That's what I'm saying.

Ms Smith attempts to criticise the survey but doesn't then provide references for those critisms

Yes she does. But if you aren't satisfied ask her. I'm sure she'd be more than happy to provide further information.

Re Sexual violence and sex differences:

Of the 476,000 (average per year, between 2009 -2012) adults reporting being victims of sexual offences around 404,000, or 85 per cent of the total were women and 72,000 or 15 per cent were men.
The Home Office estimates that of the estimated 78,000 rape victims each year, 69,000, or 88 per cent are women.
95% of adults - of either sex - who had experienced serious sexual assault since said the offender(s) was male and 5% said the offender(s) was female.
(Home Office Report: An Overview of Sexual Offending in England and Wales aggregates three years’ data from 2009 -2012)

Choudhary, et al (2012)found that approximately 90% of sexual assaults experienced by males, are against males under the age of 19.

Beatrixparty - I do give the sources of my data in my blog, I reference Marianne Hester (2009),Kimmel 2002, Dobash et al. 1998 and discuss the problems with the data from the British Crime Survey. wp.me/p3jI2H-2r