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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Warwick University rowing club women's team calendar

381 replies

duchesse · 14/10/2013 15:20

Are they being ironic?

OP posts:
DavesDadsDogDiedDiabolically · 18/10/2013 14:41

I'm more than willing to be educated as to why one is acceptable & one is not...

Yougotbale · 18/10/2013 14:48

Buffy - you can't say it is true or not.
I'm unsure of where you get your stereotypes for a society. How a society thinks, reacts, behaves. Whether that can be done to any meritible standard.
You say 'such images', how do you personally decide what makes an image a problem. And what society views as a problem image.
I think there may be a part of women's pictures being sold to men. I think having that as a main reason is reductive. I think it is a lot more complex than that. I don't think these pictures of rowers are part of the problem. I'd be more worried about a viewer that thought they were. So you think all the women in this calendar are overly attractive. I presume the word 'consume' is used to back up the theory. Does it mean look at?

You are so bound to your theory, you even have to try and act it out:

It's like I'm a silly little lady you're indulging for a moment, so as to set me straight.

Is that your initial thought of how women are perceived. Your view is worrying. It's messed up. It's like you revel in it this theory. I don't get it.

You discribed me as less able than your little kid. It may be offensive but not any wider spread meaning. Maybe I was more less courteous to you, so I'm sorry.

BuffytheAppleBobber · 18/10/2013 14:49

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BuffytheAppleBobber · 18/10/2013 15:04

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emcwill74 · 18/10/2013 15:13

images of attractive naked women do contribute to the way society views women as decorative. And I think that the problem is that society doesn't see this as a problem, on the whole. Society thinks "aww, they're lovely! They made the choice to do it, it's natural, init"

This ^

Yougotbale · 18/10/2013 15:36

So your own perception is that overly sexualised images are consumed by men. You think this is society's main position? You say you form this opinion through people around you? Does your husband consume images?
You believe it to be true but can not prove whether it is true or whether the effects of these images is true.
I have not any preconceptions of what you think, I can look at the theory and judge what that is saying.

You say images of attractive women are a problem. How did you decide the rowers were attractive? Which rower is the most attractive in you opinion? Did you naturally objectify them to make that decision or purposefully objectify them? Or is possible to view someone's attractiveness with out consuming the woman in the image?

I think it is more complex than being summed up in a sentence. The more worrying thing is the perception of the image itself. It's a naked body, similar to a body on an autopsy table.

Yougotbale · 18/10/2013 15:41

Can an 'unattractive' woman be decorative?

Phaserstostun · 18/10/2013 15:46

There is something fundamentally different in Western society about how men and women display themselves. I don't think that is disputed. While much of our clothing is equivalent - the business suit, or the jeans and t-shirt look for example - there also seems to be an additional set of clothing that applies only to women. The 'much flesh on show' items, or the incredibly tight stuff. I assume that this is part of the 'women as decoration' phenomenon that Buffy refers too, and she is right - it exists. But the funny thing is, it's an additional option. It isn't compulsory, and it isn't instead of another option that only men have. So it can be difficult for non-feminists, like myself, to see the 'women as only decoration' perspective as a problem. It can seem like women as decoration and doctor/athlete/home secretary/CEO if they so choose.

There are societal pressures to conform to a look, no doubt, just as there are pressures on everyone to conform to certain standards - the problem comes when that is your only option - look pretty, show some leg, drape yourself over a car etc. But when it isn't your only option, surely it's just part of a wide choice that we all have, at least in Western society. And, I am pretty sure that strong, healthy, white, affluent female athletes at a prestigious university are pretty near the top of society. Like their male counterparts. And like their male counterparts, they may be more focussed on themselves, their social strata, their ambitions than any wider consequences of their actions.

And perhaps that is equality in action.

emcwill74 · 18/10/2013 15:54

But Phaser, have you ever heard a man say to another man 'cheer up! Might never happen!' or 'c'mon, give us a smile!'? These are apparently harmless comments, not sexually violent, for example. But what do they mean, and why is it normal for a man to say this to woman he doesn't know, in a shop, for example, but not a man to another man? I would suggest it's because when a woman smiles she looks more attractive, so it's nice for a man to see that, rather than her looking grumpy. But why should my gender exist to jolly up a man's day by having a nice smile for him? This is what we mean when we say that women are the decorative sex whether we want to be or not.

Yougotbale · 18/10/2013 15:58

Emcwill - I'm not sure how common these comments are. You find examples of these on here. Look at the Alastair Campbell web chat/interview thing. There are many of those comments. Are they due to sexualised images of men? I don't think they are

BuffytheAppleBobber · 18/10/2013 16:01

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BuffytheAppleBobber · 18/10/2013 16:06

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emcwill74 · 18/10/2013 16:12

Bale, believe me, these comments are very common! And they are directed overwhelmingly one way! So much so in fact there was a twitter hashtag recently #sayingsmileis and here is an article about the very issue, believe me, it's a thing: www.salon.com/2013/09/13/smile_baby_the_words_no_woman_wants_to_hear/

Yougotbale · 18/10/2013 16:17

If the images are not purchased, is looking at them objectifying? What is your personal opinion of the attractiveness of the images? Are 'unattractive' women damaging? What is your definition of decorative?

Proof is difficult in a social science. It does take on a different meaning in a qualitative sense. I suppose our views are down to perception of how these images affect society. I think it strange that you can distinguish between sex and nakedness but you have little faith that others can. You think these images will effect people

Yougotbale · 18/10/2013 16:22

Emcwill - I'm sure they are. It just reminded me of the Alastair Campbell webchat

BuffytheAppleBobber · 18/10/2013 16:40

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Yougotbale · 18/10/2013 17:04

I don't think the images in the calendar affects society. I think censorship and religion has turned nakedness of men and women in to something it shouldn't be.
I don't think that images of naked men and women causes society to impact on individuals. In the same way that society may have expressed a view of beauty but it doesn't affect the way you view the images. I'm not sure what society's view of women is. Id say it wouldnt be one view. I don't think you could make it out that there is one view.
I believe beauty to be more to do with symmetry and linked to nature.
You said something like, images of overly attractive woman can reinforce a decorative role. I was curious about 'unattractive' women in images. What is the impact.

Id disagree that nakedness is a 'look'. More of whether the body is covered or not. I think normalising nakedness is positive in removing the religious taboo around it. I don't think naked images put women as decorative person.

It is hard for an image to not be viewed and judged. Be it a sunset, a person whatever. You don't have the background knowledge. I don't think many people see an image of a women then assume that women in real life are no more interesting as a photo

Yougotbale · 18/10/2013 17:06

*than a photo

Phaserstostun · 18/10/2013 17:10

EMC - I have had a woman say to me 'Cheer up, it might never happen.' I never saw anything vaguely suspicious about it. I assumed I looked a bit miserable, and she was trying to cheer me up. Maybe it was a chat-up line, but I wasn't aware of it. Bugger Grin. Or, more likely, it was a bit of social interaction. Some people just love to chat.

FloraFox · 18/10/2013 17:33

Catching up on this thread, it seems to me that the male posters have not been able to formulate any kind of coherent analysis at a societal or class level. Since you're all quite new to FWR, you might not realise that this board is often used for the discussion of ideas and principles and an exploration of feminist thought. Not every thread is intended to be a protest.

All this talk about "it's only your view" or "your reality" or "but it's lovely, innit" is ignoring that it is possible to analyse individual actions and societal responses around coherent principles. This is a fundamental human activity:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideology

Disregarding analysis of society and class behaviour is a deeply conservative attitude as it accepts the status quo without even acknowledging that is what you are doing.

Yougotbale · 18/10/2013 17:43

Flora - I don't think anyone has given a coherent analysis of society or individuals. It's a trading of opinions. It's all perception.

BuffytheAppleBobber · 18/10/2013 17:55

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SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 18/10/2013 18:01

Buffy: My analysis is that such images are part of a wider social phenomenon that packages up images of attractive women's bodies and presents them for men to consume.

I do however think that it's a good idea to point out to women and men that their choices aren't ever completely free from social and cultural influence, and that the choices they make have consequences for others. This is what I meant by consciousness raising. A good example was the Charlotte Church speech on the Radio recently about how young women are exploited by the music business.

Flora: It is also important to think about these issues at a personal and a class level. A person may be objectified on an individual level and this may or may not reinforce the objectification of a class of persons. The issue of choice is not relevant to the issue of objectification (although they may overlap). Images of semi-naked men could objectify an individual man but in our society, the picture would not contribute to the objectification of men as a class because men as a class in our society are not pigeonholed as the decorative sex class. (I'm meh about pictures of men; if men are concerned that there is a move towards men being relegated to the decorative sex class or object to individual objectification then by all means, they can object to those pictures.) Similarly not all naked pictures of women objectify either the individual woman nor contribute to the objectification of women as a class (e.g. the non-sexual athletes' photos).

A picture of a person reinforcing a social role is not necessarily objectification although feminists might object to it for reinforcing a social role if it suggests that the role is innate.

Coherent analyses of society and individuals. (Even if you don't agree with them, they are coherent).

Yougotbale · 18/10/2013 18:06

Sab - it's not analysis of any depth. It's an opinion. What are examples that solely fit that analysis?

The bit about men being objectified isn't true. Unless you mean sexual objectification.

FloraFox · 18/10/2013 18:07

It's not all perception. Feminism is a group of ideologies with various differing opinions and schools of thought but they are each coherent analyses. I outlined my ideas around objectification, choice, individual impact on class etc in relation to these pictures. Most of the responses to that post and to Buffy's posts have been no more than "I don't agree" or "that's just your opinion" or comments that remind me of Margaret Thatcher's "there is no such thing as society".