Gender feminism - would like to know what people think

[Crumbledwalnuts]

Prompted by a thread about a fairy party. I see nothing wrong with a 3 year old inviting only girls to a fairy party. Others disagree. That's not for here but it prompted some thoughts.

It made me think that perhaps the idea of gender feminism motivates the idea that it's wrong to allow a girls only fairy party. What I'm referring to is the feminist standpoint that males and females are the same by nature and only different by nurture (basically).

I disagree with this very much, despite having a son who cross dressed much more than most boys and a daughter who's very tomboyish. Very. I still think there are basic emotional differences (and so, life preferences) arising from hormones.

I am a feminist and talk to my children about equal rights. I believe feminism is about equal rights not men and women being the same.

What do people think.

But I might think that just because I've only (knowingly) met two transexuals and they both seemed to be very busy being very 'feminine' in a way I found quite alien.

Nooka, with scary levels of people overweight, a weight management industry generating billions a year, cosmetics generating many billions more, plastic surgery becoming more common place and numbers of anti-depressant prescriptions going up up up- its general society you need to prep a kid for, not getting them to reject a career choice in modelling voiced at age 6. Raise a kid to have a brain and self esteem and they will use both, but in the way they intend in the profession they decide to enter (if they are even able to enter it). It applies equally to a girl wanting to be a model or an engineer.

Really Dadwashere? You can't possibly imagine a highly likely scenario where a woman's self-esteem might be stripped with a career in modelling? Self-esteem is fluid.

Not to mention eating disorders that are prevalent too. The mother had a valid point. She may not jhave wanted to get onto the objectification argument with a 5 yr old.

Sorry that post wasn't that clear. Basically I can't see what is wrong with pointing out what could be damaging about a career, in terms that a 5/6 yr old would understand.

No we don't want children to grow up obese, nor do we want them to having eating disorders brought on by wanting to fit impossibly high standards based on their looks alone.

Yes, I'd damn well want to stop my daughter thinking modelling was a good career, because of the risk of eating disorders. For exactly the same reasons I've explicitly spoken to my 5 yr old DS about the army (the TV ads make it look so glamorous). I've explained that while soldiers are very brave, and sometimes wars have to be fought as a last resort, at the moment we have too many people in charge of the country who think it's a good idea to send soldiers off to be shot at and killed in illegal wars simply for their own political aggrandisement. If I can explain this in age-appropriate terms to a 5 year old boy, I don't see why a mother of a 5 year old girl can't do a similar thing re. modelling. And I certainly wouldn't put either on a par with engineering!

(Important: this is not meant to denigrate serving soldiers for whom I have the greatest respect. But, by god, it is meant to denigrate some of our recent political leaders, who are guilty of war crimes in my opinion).

"Prepubescent children don't really have different levels of hormones, though. There is a difference in prenatal exposure, but comparing girls with a male fraternal twin (who would have been exposed to higher testosterone levels in utero ) with girls with a female fraternal twin (who wouldn't) showed absolutely no statistically significant difference in interests or behaviour, which suggests that it can't have that big an impact."

I didn't know this, really interesting!

There are studies showing that girls and boys are treated differently from birth, even by parents who don't know they're doing it. And the influence of consumer society and gender-divisive culture is everywhere.

Humans are hard-wired from birth to absorb the norms and values of the society they live in and behave accordingly. A newborn Scottish baby will behave in the same way as a newborn Papuan New Guinean baby... but by the time they're three the differences will be enormous. Given that boys and girls are treated differently from birth in UK society it's not hard to understand why they behave differently.

Mooncup - "Pink Brain, Blue Brain" by Lise Elliot is very good on this. (Don't be put off by the title - she's a neurologist, and the book actually sets about debunking many of the myths. I've been told Cordelia Fine is better though - on my to-read list).

One thing though - it's not so much hard-wiring as the converse: incredible plasticity in the infant brain which means that environment - including gender stereotyping, unfortunately - can massively affect brain development.

Mooncup - "Pink Brain, Blue Brain" by Lise Elliot is very good on this. (Don't be put off by the title - she's a neurologist, and the book actually sets about debunking many of the myths. I've been told Cordelia Fine is better though - on my to-read list).

One thing though - it's not so much hard-wiring as the converse: incredible plasticity in the infant brain which means that environment - including gender stereotyping, unfortunately - can massively affect brain development.

Thanks Lurcio, I'll look it up.

I don't think we're disagreeing; I meant that the human brain is hardwired to be incredibly plastic in response to the environment around it. 'Hardwired' is probably a bad choice of word, I should have just said 'Humans have evolved to absorb from birth the norms and value of the society they live in'.

I find this very interesting. I did a lot of gender studies at uni and have read Lise Elliot (I can also recommend), so I get that there is very little difference in children. And in adults.

Where I struggle is with the politics of motherhood. The experience of pregnancy, birth and becoming DD's primary carer has been a total game changer for me.

While I've always been a feminist, having a child has made me realise that it's not as easy as 'we're all the same'. We're not. After all, it is always the women who do the childbearing and the breastfeeding. Not all of them, by any means, but when people do those things, they are always women. And the effect of those things on a woman's body, hormone levels and brain is not insignificant.

Yes, that's what makes it hard to separate out what's innate from what's socially conditioned; our brains have evolved to respond strongly and rapidly to social conditioning and no one grows up entirely cut off from social context.

Sorry not to be on and contributing much but a. I don't know much about this and b. I've been at work and c. I really appreciate all the replies and I'm reading through the debate. Many thanks.

But I would think of that as something separate mummybare. Definitely areas where women's rights should differ from men's rights, for example about making a decision about whether or not to abort a pregnancy, because this is about bodily autonomy.

I don't see what that has to do in general with stereotypes etc, though.