Discussing feminism with women today

[ContentedLittleMummy]

A post was opened about feminism on a forum I'm on. I'm a feminist, leaning more towards rad feminism but not buying into all their ideology. I don't believe men can be feminists, I think they can sympathise with the movement, as I can say against race rights, but they haven't truly experienced being a woman in a partiarchal society.

I got called names and a "man hater" and all sorts of horrible things, and I wondering if my beliefs are really out there and a bit insane?! I'm married to a man with two sons, and I don't "hate men" and I know that's a lazy thing to call a feminist but it's really got me down.

And beachcomber.

And so many others. When feminists fight amongst themselves we unwittingly do the patriachy's work.

Yes, ITA with FloraFox and your last sentence can't be said enough.

I think if you actually read the post in which basil said "what do you want to do, ban all-women marches?" Properly you will see it was deliberate hyperbole. Because somehow we always end up with what about the menz. Do some men got heckled by some women on a march. Not great but really, not that big a deal. I'm not sure why one march, twenty years ago during which a few men got heckled is considered so significant.

Here. Have the thread. I can't be bothered to engage with someone who is so persistently chippy and prone to misinterpretation and then ironically accuses others of taking exception to her and telling her what to think.

"So you want to see all women only marches banned"

Basil didn't say that.

She said "What do you want to do about the fact that some women somewhere were nasty twenty years ago? Ban all woman marches? Or what?"

It was quite obviously a rhetorical question born out of the frustration women have of constantly being told we want to be more than equal despite us quite obviously being way way off being even close to equality and or liberation. (Which FloraFox said so well)

In addition, feminists often get told about instances of some random women/feminists behaving badly as though that is some sort of argument against the existence/methods of a movement which involves millions of women over hundreds of years in a struggle for basic human rights. And that is frustrating (understatement) too.

And when women react to this frustration with plain words and directness we are often told we are overreacting/hysterical/emotional/need to calm down/can't take a joke/insert sexist stereotyping of women's righteous anger here....

And whether it be a man or a woman who does it, many of us point that out.

Fantastic thread, there's much food for thought here. I'm not a feminist, but (I think) I have feminist leanings and definitely support womens' rights as a more equal society benefits us all. I have daughters who describe themselves as feminists, and I couldn't be happier about that if I tried. DD2 is particularly strident and very successful at pointing out and rebutting double standards in her male friends' opinions. I usually leave her to it until she's won her argument then just chip in with a "well said" and leave it at that.

I like Caitlin Moran and always read her column and find her funny, but being in control of my vagina is not difficult. I can control that. WHat I want is that childcare is not just a woman's problem, that women don't bear the brunt of the sacrifices for parenting, that women are paid equally, that unskilled female jobs are valued more, that being a postman is not paid twice as much as being a carer........ I don't know what I am. A feminist I think. Women still get the shitty end of the stick if they're uneducated and/or they split up from father of their children.

Ime though a lot of successful and educated women find discussions about feminism a bit embarrassing or superfluous. My friends are all more successful than I am and issues that affect other poorer women don't touch them. They deny the need for feminism, they think that because they, a privileged, educated, white woman from a healthy loving family background (with a decent supportive husband) don't need feminism that it is not needed . It's exasperating. I wonder if their cleaners and childminders agree.

You are right Kim, of course it doesn't only happen to women. I do think feminists/women are held to particularly high (and double) standards with regards to how we behave and express ourselves in male supremacist society however.

A woman doesn't have to do very much to be accused of being an extremist/man hater/oppressor or as bad as/wanting to rule the world. The simple acts of wanting to march together or meet together are classic examples of this.

Women writing books or Saying Things is often compared to centuries of male violence against women and subjugation of women as though these things are in any way comparable in terms of oppression and access to power.

One interesting aspect of the OP is that it was other women that the OP herself got into a slanging match with, and other self-identified feminists at that. Not handmaidens, not surrendered wives. It appears to have ended with one side using insults that we would normally expect from the Daily Mail and their ilk.

Is feminism more susceptible than other political movements to infighting and ultimately defeating itself? I suspect not - politics arouses passions - but there is a lot of scrapping and infighting on here too. Is MN typical of other FWR forums?

Just because the respondents to the op were posting on a feminism board it doesn't mean they were women or feminists.

I can't think of a single word like feminism for other "movements". Socialism; Marxism; PRism (PR Movement ). Feminism was originally called Women's Rights. That makes it pretty clear what the movement is about.

but I have yet to come across a man who has been able to throw off the conditioning of patriarchy to the extent that he is aware of each and every aspect of his male privilege and who is able to really understand female oppression from a female perspective.

Chubfuddrer said 'Just because the respondents to the op were posting on a feminism board it doesn't mean they were women or feminists.'

The OP's post at 19:07 says they identified themselves as feminists. Hence my phrase 'self-identified feminists'. And the title of this thread is 'Discussing feminism with women'. So I put 2 and 2 together....

How do you know it was a 'slanging match' CiscoKid? ContentedLittleMummy said she was called names and accused of not wanting true equality because she doesn't think men need to be included in everything that concerns female oppression. She seems also to have come up against a fairly common accusation against feminists of doing too much book reading and thinking that makes her a smarty pants and others thickos.

You know ContentedLittleMummy, when I first read your OP, my first thought was 'join the club sister'

When women express opinions that question the status quo we often get called names, come under attack, etc. And yes, often from other women - in feminism, women behaving like this is analysed as internalized sexism.

It is good for women to hold robust discussions about women's politics and oppression, it is fine to disagree and to say so in plain words. There is a lot to discuss and much of it very painful. It hurts to examine and analyse male supremacist society, as a woman. And so, lots of women shy away from that because they need the protection of cognitive dissonance in order to survive and lead a woman's life with a relative degree of peace. So when another woman comes along and rocks the boat and Says Stuff about women's low status and the institutionalised pervasive misogyny of the world, some women react to that with anger and 'blame the messenger' type behaviour.

Raising one's feminist conciousness is a painful process. Resisting the raising of one's feminist consciousness hurts too.

The following bits of the OP made me think it was a slanging match - I got called names and a "man hater" and all sorts of horrible things... and ... but it's really got me down. That does not sound like a satisfying, robust exchange of ideas to me. I could be wrong though.

Also, I don't know about others on this thread, but I know it really hurts when I come up against internalized sexism (my own or that of others), plain old sexism is easier to identify and call out and you sort of expect it. But internalized sexism can feel like a betrayal - even when you understand the political analysis behind it. And it hurts to see how successfully manipulated and controlled women as a group are. In my experience internalized sexism is the reason behind much of the in-fighting that goes on between women. And that hurts too.

(Plus internalized sexism is inevitably used as a "women do it too" stick to beat us with.)

No it doesn't sound like a slanging match either. It sounds like op tried to have a discussion and was attacked.

I wasn't suggesting that it was a satisfying robust exchange of ideas. To my mind, a slanging match would involve two sides calling each other names/attacking each other personally.

I didn't get that impression from ContendedLittleMummy. The impression I got was that she was called names and a bit ganged up on.

I took issue with you calling it a slanging match because it came across as dismissive and misrepresentative of the complex and political dynamic that was being described. (i.e. feminist views interfaced with internalized sexism.)

Slanging match was the wrong phrase. Reading it again, it does sound like the name-calling was one-way.

I also feel that the whole "in-fighting" argument is designed to keep women down. Women are pitted against other women. It is a deliberate tactic of an oppressive group to ensure that those they oppress argue amongst themselves. In addition it is also used as a weapon to deny equality "How can you expect equality when you can't even agree amongst yourselves". Which is of course a ridiculous argument but is used frequently in various guises on here.