we went to a gay pride carnival

[ThirdTimesABrokenFanjo]

100,000 people where no one was dressing for straight men.

most of the women had comfy clothes and the ones who were dressing in a "sexy" way had gone whole hog and were practically naked.... but not in the "im actually feeling quite uncomfortable and it's really apparent to anyone who looks at me" way you often see. Maybe it was the fact that they wernt being molested or catcalled as they walked.

and i realized while looking at the young men how rare it is for men to be undressed in our society. I probably saw more banana hammocks in any square ft there than i have ever seen in my 30 years of tv viewing.

Straight men want boobs and fussy hair and make up so they get it.

straight men do not want to see bananna hammocks so we just dont see them

[arsenaltilidie]

Yes society does put a premium for women to look attractive and puts premium/pressure on men to be successful.

However society is run be a FEW men and everyone else is just pawn, that's easily replaced.

[BasilBabyEater]

I think male grooming will get far more prevalent as the marketing people realise it's a largely untapped market.

I had a lover a while ago who shaved his pubes and waxed his back. I was sort of astounded and disconcerted by this (and ever so slightly repelled, but that's by the by), but he said all his friends did it too, except one who wasn't naturally hairy (though he had pubic hair.)

And of course, it's because the people who produce the wax and the shaving cream, have a market to grow. So they will seek to normalise male grooming in order to sell their product

[BasilBabyEater]

Sorry, I mean they will seek to normalise this form of male grooming - removing hair.

This is also influenced by porn culture, where everyone is hairless.

[Tubemole1]

I worked at Leicester Sq station on Saturday and half our "traffic" was from Pride.

Gay and straight friends came by, or straight family members supporting gay family members, and I also saw children of gay families.

I think its a great opportunity for LGBT folk to socialise, campaign, and stick two fingers up at prejudice.

[AmandaPandtheTantrumofDoom]

Kim - But that's my point. Women's rules are enormously complex. Enormously expensive. Enormously time consuming.

[specialsubject]

...so don't follow the women's rules. There isn't pressure to wear a stupid 'swimsuit' that doesn't work. Wear a rash vest and boardies, and keep the sun off into the bargain. There isn't pressure to wear heels. etc etc.

peer pressure only works on sheep.

[SinisterSal]

God specialsubject. that's a bit simplistic. Most people don't want to stand out - that's human nature. Maybe we're more sheep than ape?

[NiceTabard]

YY

Having said that I once de-haired a boyfriend's back for him before he went on hol. There is a certain level of male hairiness that qualifies for a flinch from many observers on the beach, and younger men are responding to that. But where has that come from? Men taking the piss out of each other, and on TV and stuff, male comedians wearing excessively hairy chest wigs and the like. It's prob a bit racist as well - white northern europeans being less hairy generally and so propogating their look as the norm.

Media is what influences and that's run by blokes. That's the point, surely?

I do think that men get pressure to look one way or another - my very hairy ex, and now DH who would struggle to grow a beard which he's slightly sensitive about... But it's not kind of linked into everything else, it's not so important as the female stuff.

Like the 2 managers on my team (male) eye me from time to time in quite an obvious manner. I don't even think they know they're doing it. And it's always been that way, for me and most women/girls I think. It makes girls and women feel self-conscious, and hyper-aware of how they look, hence the constant preening and checking. I eye men, because I personally have a keen and interested eye for male beauty and have never been looking for power or money. But I don't leer. That's the thing that gets on my nerves, that men think it is OK to look at women and girls like that. I would never look at a bloke like that at work or generally really. It's just a rude and insulting thing to do. Why can't they subtely look out of the corner of their eye like women do? Rather than a full slow up and down sweep just before a meeting or something? Gah!

[catherine19]

I've always found women judge more then men on the whole. I like o wear make up heels etc. I do it because I like the image this projects to men and women, I worry more about wha women will think or say about me.
Going bk to the original post maybe people who go to gay pride events are more confident in their own skin and proud, and I mean that in a positive way and that could influence clothing choices? Plus I don't think I want to see more banana hammocks! But I no many straight men who would, and some who have woren them in public and that us because they ooze with confidence. I also no gay men who would not!

[SinisterSal]

Interesting point about the racist thing NiceT. Just thinking about the Stavros stereotype etc - hadn't thought of that before.

[CoalDustWoman]

specialsubject has got a point - although to get to that point, you have to wade through all the guff in your head about what is expected of you as a woman. Or not care at all in the first place. It's all very fucked up - I sometimes get to a place where I think "Stop being so fucking narcissistic", then I hear a friend tell me that a bloke shouted "You lesbo" at her out of a van because she doesn't conform and I sigh. Deeply.

Interesting, OP, that you should mention the male-gazeyness or lack of towards women at Pride - I was looking at the pics of Glasto on the DM (shoot me) and was struck my how few men were on there. Do men not go anymore?

And I just visited my Aunt and she had a firefighters calendar up (don't ask). I don't think she was really the target market, regardless of age. It was still male-gazey, albeit gay male. How did I know it wasn't for me? I am visual, I like men and I like men's bodies. What was it in those pics that said to me that they weren't shot for my delectation? Interesting, innit?

[CoalDustWoman]

How do you know women judge?

[CoalDustWoman]

NT - funny you should say that about your colleagues. I have just lost a stone - health reasons beause I was getting a bit tubby and am getting on a bit. Am now a bit more patriarchally compliant weight-wise and I have dug out some old dresses because my fat clothes don't fit any more (classic horder of clothes that might fit again).

There seems to be some discombobulation occuring. In fact, I would say that there are some problems creeping in because, lo and behold, I am now seen as a woman! And I pass the Patriarchy Fuckability Test because I am lucky with my genes and I am girl-next-door pretty. So, all professionalism has gone out of the window as far as the men are concerned and they are treating me differently. The cocks are out and all manner of put downs are creeping in. The women aren't like that though.

[Startail]

Little girls looking nice at a party has nothing to do with a society run by heterosexual men. The little girls are dressed up because their mother's think they will be judged by other mothers if they don't put little DD in a posh frock.

All sorts of judgements in money, status and how well you discipline you little girl. Fuck all to do with their fathers.

[CoalDustWoman]

I don't need to wait. I know what happens. (Odd that you posted that here, tbh)

See, context is so important. Ordinarily, I would lament the lack of women or celebrate that they were being recognised.

[BellEndTent]

I think the grooming thing is becoming more equal. I see straight, fake tanned, overly fit men in tight trousers, low v-necks and perfectly-styled hair everywhere at the moment.

[BellEndTent]

I think they look a bit silly but am secretly pleased they are having to make at least as much effort as the girls for appearance's sake.

[NiceTabard]

"looking nice"

So you are fully bought into the concept of little girls "looking nice".

Where has that come from? It comes from the fact that historically (moreso) and now (still there) that women's value comes from how they look. The idea that an attractive female might "marry well" (see kate middleton and what was written about her and how she met william) reinforced by the media (pretty woman, my fair lady, disney, a trillion others) and by society in general (men tend to marry younger women, sometimes buy them in from overseas). Much of this is linked to wealth and power - men have it women don't. When women have it and men don't, guess what, they start behaving more like men and putting physical attractiveness ahead of stuff like earning potential.

All of this is built in very deeply to pretty much all cultures around the world. In many places there is still dowry or modern equivalent of. It runs so deep that people somehow think this is "normal" or the "fault" of women. It's is much much more complicated than that and is a result of male dominance and in many cultures ownership of women.

The wearing of teeny clothes and the wearing of covering clothes are coming from the same place. The fact that women sometimes engage in enforcing the "rules" does not change the place they are coming from.

[CoalDustWoman]

How do you know that women judge? And why do women not do "oh, do fuck off" in whatever manner suits the occasion.

I know some do it. I know why they do it. I just don't get its import. And I say that as someone who used to do all that conforming shit. I just don't really get why I thought it was important. Since I stopped, my life has just got better. It is only a correlation in terms of mindset i.e. I am not doing better at work because I stopped having continually hair-free legs. I am doing better, though, because I am spending less time worrying about what other people think and more about who I am and what I am doing.

[SinisterSal]

Of course it does Startail Otherwise why aren't the little boys all decked out? You said it yourself - it's all sorts of judgements tied up in money, status, parenting tied up in females' looks and how well they conform.
It would be lovely if we just judged looks as looks and left it at that, another attribute to be admired, like a nice singing voice or having a good head for numbers. But there is much ,much woven into that, and much much more for girls.

[Startail]

Coal dust, you have lost weight and now see yourself as fackable. I think that's what the men notice.

Your looking for a reaction to your weight loss and the dresses, so you get one.

Something in your body language says now you may judge me. You want them to notice so they do.

[SinisterSal]

Jesus startail. So it's all in Coal Dusts head? So these men don't have independent thoughts of their own?

Those little comments CoalDust? All your own fault! get back to feeling fat and sad cos no man wants you!

Sorry. that's not a helpful comment. i will press post anyway

[ThirdTimesABrokenFanjo]

yeah coaldust. its your fault

[Startail]

I understand the historical, girls as trophy wives bit, but what I want is a better world for my DDs now and that starts with every woman on this list promising her DD will never again make fun of another woman for her appearance, she won't judge their clothes, makeup or notice if her legs are shaved.

It ain't going to happen is it? Seriously since we aren't going to put our house in order, there is bugger all point in having a go at men.