we went to a gay pride carnival

[ThirdTimesABrokenFanjo]

100,000 people where no one was dressing for straight men.

most of the women had comfy clothes and the ones who were dressing in a "sexy" way had gone whole hog and were practically naked.... but not in the "im actually feeling quite uncomfortable and it's really apparent to anyone who looks at me" way you often see. Maybe it was the fact that they wernt being molested or catcalled as they walked.

and i realized while looking at the young men how rare it is for men to be undressed in our society. I probably saw more banana hammocks in any square ft there than i have ever seen in my 30 years of tv viewing.

Straight men want boobs and fussy hair and make up so they get it.

straight men do not want to see bananna hammocks so we just dont see them

[MyHumpsMyLovelyBabyBumps]

Apparently men are in no way responsible for their behaviour, they're just highly attuned to what women want (even more than the actual woman herself )

[MyHumpsMyLovelyBabyBumps]

Yep. And if you point out how vile and judgmental that the is... The sisterhood doesn't exist

[NiceTabard]

Did I really read a post upthread that seemed to say that women and girls who "get rubbish from men" are subconsciously asking for it?

[MalenkyRusskyDrakonchik]

I'm sorry too. I've just had a minor bang in my car so in a shaky and/or foul mood.

[MalenkyRusskyDrakonchik]

I was only asking a question. I didn't mean to twist anything, just to ask what you thought.

Sorry I spoke.

[TiggyD]

The pressure on men to look good from women consists basically:
No socks and sandals.
2 separate eyebrows.
Be clean.

[MalenkyRusskyDrakonchik]

I do agree, the wedding industry has obviously got a lot more amped-up than it used to be.

But I think you're wrong that all the impetus comes from brides - and, sorry, but I do think you're doing exactly what you said other women do, that is, judging other women here.

I didn't want to wear a corsetty, huge dress. I certainly didn't want all and sundry to feel it was their business I lost weight. And I didn't give a flying fuck about making my female friends feel jealous (and frankly, I find it hard to believe that's normal at all. Most people like their friends).

What I did notice was the relentless pressure of other people's assumptions. It certainly wasn't just women assuming I would be dieting like mad, would be getting my hair done and doing exercises to tone myself up. It seemed to be perfectly acceptable for blokes to comment on this too.

DH really noticed it, because we went shopping for my dress and his suit together, and no-one, but no-one, looked at him and said 'so, how much do you plan to lose before the big day?'

It would be nice to think men don't care how women look, but I don't believe it's true!

[Startail]

I finally managed to give up bitting my nails, so I could paint them for my wedding, but that was it.

I think this whole diet for your wedding thing is more recent, and comes at least in part, from brides being older, having far more money and wanting to put on the perfect show for their peer group.

Again they want to be a more perfect bride than their female friends and look thinner in their pictures to make them jealous.

All brides look beautiful to the average man.

[MalenkyRusskyDrakonchik]

kim, do you honestly think it's exactly the same for men and women, this stuff, then?

I can't wrap my head around it. If it is, how come women are the ones we're always seeing half-naked pictures of in the papers? Apart from anything else.

I'm just thinking about weddings at the moment as my mate is getting married - her DH has lost a few pounds and bought a nice suit. He wants to look nice. Obviously.

But no-one to my knowledge has been going around telling him he must be losing weight, right? There aren't a row of lifestyle magazines in the shop called 'Groom', on the front of which are 'diet tips - lose two stone and fuck your kidneys in three easy steps.' Because it's different for him than for her.

I'd say, FWIW, that a hetero wedding is probably about as far the other way from gay pride as you get. It sums up how differently people think about women and men - perfect strangers assume it's normal to expect that the woman must be running around like a blue-arsed fly making her body look different.

[Startail]

Bed I've waffled long enough.

[Startail]

Sadly as to the horrible gossip, I'm too far down the mum's social pecking order to make any difference if I said anything. I only get invited at all due to a very socially adept DD2

[Startail]

Coal I don't thing you are consciously asking for attention from men. But if you loose weight your more aware of the reactions to your appearance from those around you.

Totally subcontiously we send out notice me messages because we are feeling worthy of being noticed.

I never get this rubbish from men, never have. Because I can't think of a time in my life when I cared what any one thought of my appearance in a deep it bothered me way. Rather than I hope I look nice for the occasion.

Despite my inability to argue feminism, very well, I am a good scientist and valued brains over looks.

DH thinks I'm pretty, I don't and I truly don't care.

[CoalDustWoman]

And I'm not saying it's the non-sayers that are at main fault here, just that the complicity stinks.

[CoalDustWoman]

Do you call them on it? That's what puzzles me the most about the complaining about other people gossiping about others. If all those that didn't like it said something, however minor, it wouldn't be so prevalent, would it? Just like all those hundreds of thousands of men who don't really want to go to strip clubs but go along with it to keep the peace.

[CoalDustWoman]

Doesn't matter.

You seem confused. You are requesting I stop doing something I don't do (comment on other women), whilst suggesting I am doing something that I'm not doing (see myself as a fuck-magnet). All that changed is that I lost a bit of weight and started wearing some dresses. You know, like tea dresses. Not body con clubbing stuff, even if that mattered and didn't conflict with your previous post. How I act is no different because a) it doesn't mean to me what you think it does and b) my colleagues are colleagues, not flirt-targets.

Stop making shit up. It makes you look daft.

[Startail]

Coal dust, yes there are a lot of horrible threads having a go at female celebs. I'm also certain some of our school gate mums are very appearance orientated from the way their just teen DDs are turned out. I know they are horribly bitchy about child discipline, house cleaning and other things as I go to coffee with them occasionally.

I can't see DD1s peers would be so nasty if they didn't learn it their mothers knee.

[Startail]

WTF does that mean?

[CoalDustWoman]

I wonder if I never hear those comments because I never make them, so I am not fostering that climate. My face-to-face life is quite female dominated these days andI spend a lot of time on the phone to men, but we have a fairly equal distibution of men/women at work and my outside work life is women-heavy. Nothing. Ever.

Apart from my parents. But they are a work in progress . They don't even know they are doing it, so I keep a tally for them when they are watching telly and comment on the women on screen. Can't say it makes me popular but it'll shut them up eventually. At least when I'm there.

So, I don't know where this stuff is coming from. Do the MN hate-fest-on-female-celebs threads give a skewed perspective? Those who are witness to this stuff - what do they say?

[SinisterSal]

Do you think that we are all sniggering with our daughters about other women's spare tyres, or spotty chins or what have you? And not doing our best to model different behaviours and pass on different values.
I hope you don't really think that. Because if so it shows how little regard you have for us. It makes it unlikely you would engage in what we are saying, I suppose.

[CoalDustWoman]

Startail Sun 30-Jun-13 23:47:01I understand the historical, girls as trophy wives bit, but what I want is a better world for my DDs now and that starts with every woman on this list promising her DD will never again make fun of another woman for her appearance, she won't judge their clothes, makeup or notice if her legs are shaved. It ain't going to happen is it? Seriously since we aren't going to put our house in order, there is bugger all point in having a go at men.

How does that square with your post about me and my experience? All I said that was that I lost a bit of weight and wore some dresses (didn't even say what sort) because my other clothes didn't fit. And you decided that I was inviting some different treatment? You don't seem very cohesive in your thoughts. Can I help?

[ThirdTimesABrokenFanjo]

i had nasty comments as a teenager from girls, but the horrible stuff was from boys.

as an adult nothing from women.

plenty from men.

startail the abuse that comes from not being pretty enough from men... do i want that to? I'm confused to why i might want it, but you seem so sure we're asking for it