Why is it worse to lie about being a victim of rape, than it is to lie about being the perpetrator?

[Thistledew]

We hear the MRA/misogynist view trotted out time and time again when any discussion about rape convictions is had: that it is terribly important to remember that women (sometimes) lie about being raped, and how horribly devastating this is for the innocent men who are accused.

I find myself struggling to remember what the relevance of this is to the 'debate' about low conviction rates- maybe that we shouldn't take steps to make it more likely that women are believed when they say they have been raped. I'm sure someone will remind me if there is more to it than that.

But what about the fact that many more men lie about the fact that they are the perpetrators of rape?

Surely it is correct to say that the statistics show that more men falsely deny they have raped someone than women falsely claim they have been raped?

And just as a false accusation of rape is a guilty person setting out to harm an innocent person by telling lies, a false denial of rape is a guilty person harming an innocent person both by their actions and by their lies?

If there is any moral case to be made in saying that we should be sceptical about the assertions of any person or people as a group when it comes to rape allegations, then the scepticism should be against the men who deny it? And that this should remain the case until every man who rapes a woman not only confesses his crime immediately that he is arrested, but in fact hands himself in to the police as soon as he realises what he has done.

In other words, the MRA's should ensure that their house is in order when it comes to making a fuss about dishonesty in rape allegations, and should campaign on this issue first, before attacking women for the same thing.

"But lying about not having committed a crime when you have is not a monstrous thing to do, Louise? It's less monstrous is it?"

So which is worse? Committing rape? Or lying about it subsequently?

Would you seriously think that someone who has the level of morality that would allow them to subject a woman to rape would suddenly feel overcome with guilt and confess?

Lying about being a rapist potentially means a guilty man escapes spending a chunk of his life in prison.

Lying about being raped potentially means an innocent man has to spend a chunk of his life in prison.

I and most of society think it is worse for an innocent man to go to prison, than it is for a guilty man to stay free.

Also, lying about being raped is probably done to hurt someone. Lying about being a rapist is probably done out of self-preservation. One is malicious, the other isn't.

OK, just let me sort this out in my head.

If a man commits rape and is found guilty, he goes to jail.

If a man commits rape and lies about it under oath and is subsequently found guilty he will be jailed for the rape, with the time extended for lying about it. Depending exactly what he's done in the course of his lying, he could get done for perjury or perverting the course of justice as well.

If a woman lies about being raped and is found out she goes to jail.

In which of these three scenarii shoudl the guilty not be jailed?

If a woman lies about being raped should she just be allowed to do that and have an innocent man jailed, then? Without penalty?

I'm quite confused about what the OP thinks is right and wrong.

I think the explanation for this is quite simple: a lot of men can't really imagine being in a situation where they would be the victim of rape, but they can imagine themseleves being in a situation where they could be falsely accused of rape. Hence, they prioritise their concerns accordingly.

Ironically, I suspect the reality is exactly the opposite and that far more men are victims of rape than are ever falsely accused of commiting it.

ecclesvet I would disagree that lying about being a rapist isn't malicious. It forces the victim to go through an entire trial and, in some cases, horrible questioning by the defense. While it might not be done with malicious intent it is still a horrible thing to do to someone you've already badly hurt (not saying it's worse than lying about being raped, just that it isn't as trivial as being just self preservation makes it out to be)

It's not just a case of a guilty man going free though, it's a rapist who can, and almost certainly will, rape again.

I don't think you can be found guilty of perjury in that way - if you are found guilty of a crime but haven't pleaded guilty, it's incorporated into the fact that you don't get the sentence reduced for your plea.

I think perjury is when you lie, you get off and then are later proved to have been lying. But maybe that's wrong.

The sentences for false claims of rape are in line with the sentences for other false claims, I believe the guideline sentence is six months to two years.

JoTheHot, do you believe that false claims of any crime should attract a longer sentence than the crime itself than, as it's worse for the innocent to be convicted than the guilty to go free?

NotDT, I think you are absolutely right.

TheDoctrineOfAllan, Are you using a leading question to insinuate I've said something I haven't? And in answer, no, I don't.

This thread has prompted me to go back and read Kier Starmer's report

Nearly 40% of the false rape claims were made by third parties. They weren't malicious claims. They were things like young girls trying not to get in to trouble with their families. And the family reporting the rape.

In the 17 month period examined

"there were 5,651 prosecutions for rape , and 35 prosecutions for making false allegations of rape

there were 111,891 prosecutions for domestic violence, and 610 for making false allegations of domestic violence."

And we still have to talk on and on and on about the false allegations, not about the horrific number of women (and children and men) who have been raped.

Very dubious about JoTheHot's post.

It's not how things work at the moment. We do not need absolute certainty for a conviction, we have beyond a reasonable doubt. Sometimes the wrong people go to prison, for all sorts of crimes, that is something that our criminal justice system seeks to balance.

The point that is missed in that post is the point of further harm. Most men escalate to rape through an often very long process of escalating sexual assaults. They harm many people along the way. If they continue unchecked then they harm many more other people.

I would say it is better to wrongly imprison one person if that saves hundreds, and that is the way our criminal justice system currently operates.

Can I ask Jo, why you want the current system changed, and what form those changes would take?

Oh in line with a poster upthread I know 2 men who have been accused of rape and one woman who reported a rape.

The two men are happily living their lives and the woman was lambasted locally as being an unstable liar.

So there you go

Oh there was a US study which showed majority of false rape claims were made by women with mental health problems and not against anyone specific.

Same study showed that police logged many reports as "false" for no apparent reason. Recent (ish?) figures on "no criming" for rape amongst different police authorities in UK shows a similar pattern.

Surely, if falsely accusing a man of rape is one of the most heinous things a woman can do to him, then falsely accusing a woman of making a false complaint (either explicitly, or thorough untruthfully pleading not guilty) should be seen as being just as heinous on the part of the man? With this insult added to the obvious injury he has done to her by raping her in the first place? Should we not be doing more to stamp out this behaviour?

At present, a man who is convicted after a not guilty plea does not get anything added on to his sentence. One who pleads guilty has the sentence reduced.

If there should be punishment for making a false report of rape, should there not also be punishment for an offence of actual or attempted dishonest damage to the victim's reputation? With the sentence to be served consecutively to the sentence for rape?