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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Do you believe men and women should have equal rights - or not?

73 replies

HairyLittleCarrot · 27/05/2013 14:44

Bear with me.

I think most people would answer "of course, how ridiculous" when faced with the question. However, on mumsnet recently I'm increasingly reading justifications for not just covert discrimination, but support for the LAW restricting the human rights of women compared to men. I've been hanging out on the FWR boards recently and it always comes as a shock when someone offers support to an infringement of women's rights.

Lots of people rarely seem to get het up about the milder inequalities - such as a man can walk topless down a street without fear of prosecution, but a woman may be considered legally indecent, or the injustice of VAT on sanitary products etc.

But the more frightening inequalities in law that exist, such as a man can possess absolute bodily autonomy but a woman may be prosecuted by virtue of the fact that she is capable of being pregnant and thus has less rights to do what she chooses with her own body. Less rights than a man.

I can understand people struggling with an ethical dilemma on complicated issues, but I can not comprehend how anyone can actually extrapolate that to defend the law upholding different rights for men and women. For me, it's like a litmus test - whatever my personal opinions on any subject, I ultimately believe that women and men should have equal rights under the law.

Not "equal, except if a woman is/does/says ..."

I'm interested to hear people defend why women should have less legal rights than men in any circumstance.

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LRDtheFeministDragon · 27/05/2013 22:38
Shock

The link doesn't work, but, shit. That is horrible.

A mate of mine recently miscarried (in the US), and I didn't even think about how it might have been seen by some people. Surely they last thing you want to do is ring someone up ... and how on earth would you know in 24 hours? I mean, surely most people, you hope madly that you're still pregnant for quite a while? Sad

SinisterSal · 27/05/2013 22:38

That is shocking

HairyLittleCarrot · 27/05/2013 23:57

that bill was withdrawn after a public backlash, but the fact remains that there was an intent to get it passed, it is by no means isolated in terms of attempts to criminalise women on matters relating to their pregnancies, and public backlashes don't always seem to be forthcoming in every case like this, hence so many measures successfully being passed to claw back reproductive rights from women.

I'm finding it depressing that so many people don't seem to distinguish between, for example,
"How stupid I find it for women to drink dangerous levels of alcohol in pregnancy"
and
" a pregnant woman who drinks dangerous levels of alcohol should be imprisoned for manslaughter, now, how can we legislate for that?"

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FloraFox · 28/05/2013 07:19

Surely it's not that hard to separate criminalising women for their behaviour during pregnancy (e.g. drugs, alcohol etc) from either promoting a woman's right to do so or from late term abortion?

I wouldn't say just because a man doesn't get pregnant, a woman should be able to terminate her pregnancy at any time. What does this mean for the foetus/child if it is viable when the termination takes place?

If other people find that hard to distinguish, I don't think the outcome is to say that women can terminate a pregnancy at any point up to term.

SantanaLopez · 28/05/2013 11:15

Pregnancy does not result in a loss of human rights. Men can do all of those things without harming anyone else. If they harmed anyone else, I think that they would be equally prosecuted- there have been have few murder cases I think taken against a man who has killed a baby in utero.

You don't believe that the foetus/ baby has human rights which should be upheld too?

HairyLittleCarrot · 28/05/2013 11:27

no.

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HairyLittleCarrot · 28/05/2013 11:29

to clarify:
foetus : no
baby : yes

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HairyLittleCarrot · 28/05/2013 11:30

and you are wrong. pregnancy categorically does result in less human rights.
but it shouldn't.

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SantanaLopez · 28/05/2013 13:15

When does a foetus become a baby though?

Please, tell me which of these are taken away by pregnancy? Other than ridiculous points about skydiving?

namechangeguy · 28/05/2013 13:19

I have been trying to get my head around this, and come up with a comparison that applies to men. All I have managed is to make up a scenario whereby a man, through drug taking, puts other lives at risk.

So, let's say a fireman is drunk or high on duty. He answers an emergency call, but he does not perform to the best of his ability and people die in the fire. I am fairly sure that in the UK or US, he would be prosecuted for being under the influence, and this would be used against him in a court of law. It would be impossible to say for certain that those who died would have lived had he have been clean/sober, but nevertheless it would be used to prosecute him.

Is that comparable to the addict in the OP? Should the fireman be excused if he has a serious addiction? (This is probably full of holes, but it's all I can come up with, given that men can't get pregnant).

HairyLittleCarrot · 28/05/2013 13:22

a foetus becomes a baby after it is born.

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SantanaLopez · 28/05/2013 13:26

And if it has the potential (or strong likelihood) to be born alive does that not make it a baby?

You did not answer my question either.

HairyLittleCarrot · 28/05/2013 13:37

namechangeguy, your analogy does not require the fireman to use his body in a certain way against his will in preference for the support of another's life.
he chooses his profession freely.
he signs a contract of terms and conditions.
Any risk to his own health taken by performing his agreed duties have been given his full consent.
He knowingly consents to do his professional duty without influence to alcohol etc.
He is free to resign his post at any time and continue consuming alcohol.
the people whose lives depend on him do not demand residence inside his body.
He is not compelled legally to continue doing this role for months against his will.

his bodily integrity is not breached.

a woman does not enter into an automatic legal contract upon becoming pregnant to have restrictions placed upon her for the benefit of another. She does not sign away her right to eat, drink, exercise or medicate herself as she sees fit. She does not sign away her right to consider or refuse medical treatments.

She may choose for herself to do all those things. She should not be compelled by law to do them against her will.

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SerotoninCanEatTomorrow · 28/05/2013 13:38

This is such an interesting concept and I am very interested in reading the discussion - my own beliefs are fuzzy in this area.

Knee jerk reaction is that all viable babies (so able to survive outside the womb at whatever age) should be allowed to survive and should be protected to achieve that. However, I am not sure whose rights are more important - the mothers or the babies.

I don't think there can be identical rights for men and women because of the issue of biology - parental leave/holiday allocations etc generally won't be equal and further muddying the waters is the parents v non-parents rights - should the 'rights' hierarchy be mothers > fathers > non-fathers > non-mothers?

HairyLittleCarrot · 28/05/2013 13:40

santana, couldnt open links, but assuming you are asking about human rights...right to bodily integrity is the one I mean, European CHR.

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SantanaLopez · 28/05/2013 13:45

The right to bodily integrity- 'No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment. In particular, no one shall be subjected without his free consent to medical or scientific experimentation.' (the United Nations. "International Covenant on Civil and Political Right)

Have you ever been pregnant? The MN legal guide for pregnancy and birth shows that 'A pregnant or labouring woman can refuse any treatment for any reason at any point in her pregnancy, birth or after she has had her baby. She can refuse treatment, such as the injection for placental delivery, even if medical professionals agree that this could lead to her death and/or the death of her baby'.

HairyLittleCarrot · 28/05/2013 13:46

"and if it has the potential to be born alive" etc....

No. Not under UK law.

I see you are hung up on skydiving. Would it help if you considered an activity like skiing or horseriding instead? The principle is of course exactly the same, but perhaps you can better understand it if you can substitute "high risk physical activity endangering only oneself and no other born person that would not be punishable by law to another human being except a pregnant woman"

but that's long winded, I admit.

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SantanaLopez · 28/05/2013 13:52
Hmm

Your arguments are getting ridiculous. Skiing or horseriding are not human rights.

HairyLittleCarrot · 28/05/2013 13:52

we're crossing posts and I need to go for a while, but a key word there is "consent".
if a pregnant woman does not consent to restrict her usual freedoms (what she consumes, activities she undertakes) and other adults continue to enjoy those freedoms. then the law should protect her right to live her life as she chooses.

Can you force women by law to change their diets and behaviour whilst pregnant without their consent?

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HairyLittleCarrot · 28/05/2013 13:57

they are not prosecutable offences either. and you are being deliberately obtuse. Eating runny brie isnt a human right either, but the right to consume what I choose without being put in jail for manslaughter if I contract listeriosis probably falls under some human right, don't you think?

The right to undertake whatever legal activities I see fit without being put in jail is a human right.

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HairyLittleCarrot · 28/05/2013 14:03

and I've made it abundantly clear what I believe, but you seem to be hedging your bets. lay it out please...

Do you believe that a pregnant woman should have her freedoms to eat what she wants, drink what she wants and do any activity she chooses curtailed by law for the duration of her pregnancy?

With imprisonment if she doesnt?

Would you charge her with committing a crime when her act concerns her own body and no other person (at least in UK law).

Or do you draw the line at moral indignation at her choices but no further?

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SantanaLopez · 28/05/2013 14:12

Do you believe that a pregnant woman should have her freedoms to eat what she wants, drink what she wants and do any activity she chooses curtailed by law for the duration of her pregnancy? No such law exists.

With imprisonment if she doesn't? Again, doesn't exist.

Would you charge her with committing a crime when her act concerns her own body and no other person (at least in UK law). The acts of a pregnant woman does not only concern her, it concerns the foetus/baby which she is carrying.

I do not agree with women smoking in pregnancy, for example, but yes, private moral indignation is as far as it should go.

HairyLittleCarrot · 28/05/2013 14:38

santana, this thread is about the law.
it is about cases where the law has treated women as lesser humans than others.
it is about cases where women have been convicted of crimes of manslaughter or other inappropriate crimes because of what they
ate
drank
consumed as drugs, legal and illegal

because of activities they participated in
medical advice they refused

and from the start I have wanted to understand if other people can feel moral repulsion for another persons acts yet still condemn any way in which the law can criminalise them for those acts.

because women have been convicted of crimes for doing things which, whilst ethically questionable, are not crimes.

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