The invisible men project

[ArmyOfPenguins]

I think it's important that the buyers' choices in prostitution are highlighted and shared. This project was linked to on FB. Thoughts? I think it's a great idea.

the-invisible-men.tumblr.com/

[caramelwaffle]

The grim reality of prostitution.

[AnyFucker]

There was a thread on here a few weeks ago

An "everyday" kinda man had been targeting a woman whose house he had been working near. He thought she "had a lot of visitors" and "looked a bit prozzie-like" so he scoured local escort sites with his mates to find her (like you do..)

To do what ? We never found out because his partner and most of the thread defended his actions and explained it away as "just curiosity". I was told I was over reacting (as often happens) in questioning why a decent person would do that

I would call that a "malign" attitude and it is frighteningly pervasive, even in so-called "naise" society

[AnyFucker]

naice

[ArmyOfPenguins]

"older men coerce vulnerable young women into prostitution with promises of love and security, that is utter BS. It does not work that way."

Never heard of the 'loverboy' phenomenon then?

There's nothing 'mutual' about prostitution. You can see that in the punters' own words.

Men control the industry in much the same way as they control the majority of industries globablly. Prostitution is dealing in people, though. People (women and children, mostly, some adult men) are the product.

Again, this is reflected in the punters' descriptions. Which is what we're highlighting.

[ArmyOfPenguins]

The bottom line is men feel entitled to sex, and those people at the top who control resources are men.

If somehow - even in this climate of socialising women to see themselves as sexual objects and large scale sexual abuse to reinforce this - not a single woman wanted to enter prostitution, men would find a way to force it to happen. As indeed they do in countries where women have relatively more opportunities.

As long as men feel entitled to sex, women's choices are made irrelevant.

[FloraFox]

catlike I see what you mean but I think they're "passing" as normal men, if you like, but have the underlying issues others have pointed out.

arse I can understand that your desire to construct a reality that justifies the ability to buy access to a woman's body affects you ability to think rationally about this but the "failure" of that police operation does not constitute proof that the vast vast majority enter into the industry willingly.

[FloraFox]

AF I'm glad I missed that thread. FFS!

[KateSMumsnet]

Hi all,

Just as a heads up, we're going to delete some posts from a PBP. Thanks for all your reports.

[Catlike]

I cannot bring myself to make much of a distinction between the punternet mob and the ordinary, everyday, married punters. The lack of respect for/hatred of prostitutes is blatant among the punternet crowd, but it's just as insidious among the latter group.

Fair enough WhenTheRed. :)

I certainly wasn't trying to suggest that visiting prostitutes is a healthy, respectable activity like playing football or walking the dog. I just wanted to explain that the punting demographic is far wider than most people realise and that the stereotype of the average punter as a lonely, obvious weirdo is inaccurate, uncomfortable as that realisation can be.

(It came as a big shock to me and it's permanently changed my worldview, as it were. I have a very different perspective from most women on stag trips and all male holidays in general as a result.)

These men are normal seeming. They keep that side of their existence compartmentalised from the rest of their life, usually very successfully.

[FloraFox]

50 to suggest that there's any similarity between prostitution and working in McDonalds is either cognitive dissonance of the highest level or sheer stupidity. Her saying "do you want fries with that" versus him saying he "fucked her mouth as hard as I could by grabbing her head and shoving it back and forth". Get a fucking grip.

[AnyFucker]

what a surprise

50mustdos was a Previously Banned Poster

[Catlike]

catlike I see what you mean but I think they're "passing" as normal men, if you like, but have the underlying issues others have pointed out.

Yes you are probably right Flora. Or it could be that they have just internalised the values of our misogynistic society like many supposedly "normal" people do, male and female. Most men, younger ones at least, see nothing wrong with porn. And most people do not judge them for that as it's suddenly become an almost mainstream part of our culture.

It may not be a vast leap mentally for the very many young men who use porn to see the use of prostitutes as pretty much the same thing.

Sorry, I've expressed myself very clumsily here but I hope you understand what I mean.

[arsenaltilidie]

Stop twisting my words as if I'm defending my 'right' to buy a prostitute. The day I ever use a prostitute would be one of the lowest point of my life. Why would I want to sleep with a person knowing there are just sleeping with me for my money!!

anyfucker I have not been rude to you or your family but your comment on page 5 at 1418hrs was very very rude. You have no right to talk about my daughters and my son's 'tender' genitals.
I would not be happy at all if my daughter decided to work as a prostitute. I would have failed her to raise her, i would have failed to show my daughter that there are more ways to earn money than selling your body.
I would not be happy if my son was to ever visit a prostitute because i would question myself why the need to. Why cant he attract girls he is attracted to, what's wrong with him.

FloraFox lets stop the patronising language, that was just an example, there is no evidence that shows FORCED sex traffic occurs especially in brothels.

What people don't want to admit is women do enter into prostitution willingly. Regardless of their reasons they are not coerced into prostitution. It's none of our business what happens between two adults as long as no one is physically harmed.

[ArmyOfPenguins]

It doesn't matter whether some women enter willingly (and considering the culture, 'willingly' is rather muddy). What matters is that punters don't seem to care whether they are willing or not. The few studies of punters show this, as does a well researched book by Victor Malarek called 'The Johns'.

Men don't primarily buy women because they 'can't attract girls [they're] attracted to'. Of those that do, why do they think they have that right?

Women DO have the right to choose who they want to have sex with. If a man can't get who he wants without deception, coercion, intoxication or payment - tough (in an egalitarian world that feminists would like to see made a reality). Although, as things stand now, he can, and usually without negative reprocussions for him.

[TheConstantLurker]

Thoughts:
why do men visit prostitutes? Because they want instantaneous no strings sexual gratification?
Isn't that just a wank?: yeah a wank into a live human female.

So does that mean that instead of a solitary wank men have the option of a wank into a woman. Because it is available.

As a woman let me try and translate that into my terms. I might have a fantasy or just be horny and want an orgasm. Do I a) visit a male prostitute. B) have a solitary wank. C). Form a relationship with someone and as a part of that relationship open up about my fantasy and ask my partner if they would enjoy taking part.
Frankly a. Would never occur to me. Firstly I would not be that desperate for that specific orgasm. Secondly male prostitutes are not immediately and easily available for instantaneous use. I wonder why? Is it because for me, for instance, the idea of using an anonymous sex worker, possibly co-erced, possibly miserable, possibly a drug addict and therefore desperate and therefore not able to give meaningful consent is very sad and so not tenable.

How could I take that chance? How could I use a vulnerable person to achieve orgasm?

Is it because I would see that person as a person?

So men use prostitutes because they are there, available.
And women are prostitutes because there is a demand.
And men use prostitutes because they can view them as not a person?

So the need is to stop the availability and for men to see all other people as people. Not commodities.

[AnyFucker]

arsenal I have every right to draw to your attention to the fact that the girls and boys that go into prostitution are someone's son and someone's daughter

the fact that you are so angry about my presumption to bring your children into it is very telling

you are content to nonchalently shrug your shoulders and say "oh, they use each other, it's a financial transaction blah blah blah" when it is someone else's child is to be noted

and is so bloody typical of those that defend prostitution...like prostitutes are some other alien species when the truth is they are dehumanised and commodified and seen as somehow "other"

have a little think about why you are so angry with me

[FloraFox]

catlike sorry I didn't mean to suggest you were being clumsy. I agree with everything you've said, particularly about the growing normalisation of porn and prostitution.

arse you still don't get it. I'm amazed at the frequency of pro-prostitution types misusing or misunderstanding so-called evidence. I asked a previous poster for proof of his statement: the vast vast majority enter into the industry willingly. Saying there is no proof that this statement is not true, is not proof that the statement is true.

Again we have so-called liberal, "don't tell anyone what to do" bullshit. As long as I'm alright and my children are alright, who gives a fuck about everyone else, amirite?

In an ideal world where we have equal psychological and economic strength and we had no cunts people who prey on other people's weaknesses, your liberal po-mo bullshit might have some traction. We do not live in that world.

Liberalism has become an excuse to allow predators to prey on weaker people and for us not to think about the effect of individual actions on broader society. God forbid you might step in and say, "hey that's not right", without being accused of being a pearl clutcher.

For all you think you sound cool and hip, to me, you sound like Margaret Thatcher - "there is no society".

[Lessthanaballpark]

I love that project. Because everyone's always arguing over whether prostitutes are willing / coerced, independent agents / victims, but this project looks at the motives of the punters and exposes them for the scum they are.

[arsenaltilidie]

It doesn't matter whether some women enter willingly
Of course it matters! you cant just dismiss a point because it doesnt go with your point of view.
If a man can't get who he wants without deception, coercion, intoxication or payment
Sleeping with someone through Deception, coercion or intoxication can rightly land you in jail. It is wrong because you are preventing the other person from making an informed decision.
Payment, provided both parties are willing is not wrong. Because the woman would have made an informed decision.
They'l be no deception, coercion or intoxication when payment is involved.

If prostitutes only care about the payment, then why should the punters care - 'tough'

[arsenaltilidie]

It doesn't matter whether some women enter willingly
Of course it matters! you cant just dismiss a point because it doesnt go with your point of view.

If a man can't get who he wants without deception, coercion, intoxication or payment
Sleeping with someone through Deception, coercion or intoxication can rightly land you in jail. It is wrong because you are preventing the other person from making an informed decision.
Payment, provided both parties are willing is not wrong. Because the woman would have made an informed decision.
They'l be no deception, coercion or intoxication when payment is involved.

If prostitutes only care about the payment, then why should the punters care - 'tough'

[FloraFox]

Less totally agree. The punters don't care whether the women have consented, let alone made an "informed decision". They are scum.

[TheDoctrineOfSnatch]

Arsenal, it's not only trafficking that people mean when they question the willing choice of prostitution as a job. Substance abuse, entering the job before the age of consent and before normal working age and home backgrounds of physical/sexual abuse also drive the questioning.

I'm not sure what a vast vast majority constitutes (90% level, maybe?) but I'd be pretty surprised if there weren't a substantial proportion for whom some of the above applied. Do you disagree?

[ArmyOfPenguins]

"They'l be no deception, coercion or intoxication when payment is involved."

What a rosy view of things.

[TheDoctrineOfSnatch]

Btw, AF was wondering what you would think if your son becoming a prostitute rather than visiting a prostitute.

[AnyFucker]

arse educate yourself, have a look here someone's sons and daughters