Beach and When
Mackinnon is pretty clear, to paraphrase, laws are constructed by men for the benefit of men and the definitions used in laws are patriarchal in nature. So as Mackinnon says sex a woman does not want is rape, which leads inexorably to the attitude expressed by Robin Morgan in "Theory and Practice: Pornography and Rape" in "Going too Far," 1974.”I claim that rape exists any time sexual intercourse occurs when it has not been initiated by the woman, out of her own genuine affection and desire”. Which leads on to the conclusion that there is a lot of rape in marriage-which I think is rather the feminist point. In the case of prostitution-since the prostitute does not desire the client (and without payment would not have sex with him) that allows feminists to define sex within prostitution as rape.
Only one problem-as minnehaha ( a prostitute of many years experience) says (Fri 02-Aug-13 22:20:53) “What a load of f***g bollocks!... but as they say, until you've walked a mile in my shoes etc., etc” Barbara Sullivan makes the same point-that prostitutes who have experienced sex in prostitution and rape know that “there is an experiential distinction between sex work and rape.” (something Mackinnon ignores) But I suppose they have not been enlightened to their oppression by the sisterhood.
Mackinnon’s line on consent in prostitution is that it is meaningless (as true consent must imply the possibility of non-consent) as under the patriarchy which exists now “..prostitutes are assumed to (consent) and cannot but. Actual consent or non-consent, far less actual desire, is comparatively irrelevant. If rape laws existed to enforce women’s control over access to her sexuality..no would mean no, marital rape would not be a widespread exception and it would not be effectively legal to rape a prostitute” (Mackinnon Rape: On coercion and consent p5).
Sullivan point out that this is not actually true-“Where once a prostitute could not pursue a complaint of rape her non-consent can (under some circumstances) can now be registered in law. This suggests that a positive consensual capacity might also be constructed.” Sullivan B Prostitution and consent: Beyond the liberal dichotomy of free or forced in Making Sense of Sexual Consent edited by Mark Cowling, Paul Reynolds p127. Here Beach misunderstands the point.
There is a strand within feminism that denies prostitutes choice or agency-prostitutes are called “prostituted women” indicating that prostitution is something done to a person not something that can be chosen. (for a discussion of this “oppression paradigm” see Weitzer R Sociology of sex work Ann Rev of Sociology 2009 213-234 available from his website of the George Washington University departments.columbian.gwu.edu/sociology/faculty where a number of other papers on prostitution (normally behind publishers subscription barriers) are available- all of which are worth a read)
Sullivan in her writings deals with the issue of consent. Here Beach again misunderstands (or misrepresents) Sullivan’s point. Within prostitution Sullivan uses consent to cover two cases-(i) whether a woman can freely choose-or consent to be a prostitute-in other words does she have agency? (ii) is she is in a position to consent to a particular client or particular act.
In answer to (i) She points out that consent is always constrained in any occupation (not just sex work) –not everyone has the ability to play Wimbledon or run a hedge fund, there are constraints of poverty lack of opportunity bad luck in the genetic lottery and being a woman, so consent is constrained in all sorts of work– but consent is not talked about with respect to other work-but does this mean that it is non-existent in sex work? As Sullivan puts it “In the realm of work there is a general lack of freedom of choice for most workers. So, why would we want to insist on the liberal language of choice and consent in the area of sex work?” She goes on to point out that to do so would label most work as coercive –which is clearly absurd (Sullivan op cit pgs 127-8)
As for (ii) is she is in a position to consent to a particular client or particular act? She points out that to deny that the prostitute has choice would mean that a prostitute is always consenting and so not be rapeable. This was unfortunately the line taken until relatively recently in courts of law-but the legal consensus is now that yes-a prostitute can be raped-which implies she has a choice in the matter. (vide supra) Indeed prostitutes on their websites and in discussions and actions with clients do state what their boundaries are and what they will and will not do (always use a condom for vaginal sex, no anal etc) and certainly being raped is not on her will-do list.
I find it an odd position discussing feminist doctrine with When and Beachcomber, and to be honest I don’t find it particularly interesting as often it is discussion in a vacuum-theory without data. What is more interesting is what the EVIDENCE says about consent and agency, free vs forced.
What the evidence shows is contrary to the stereotype most prostitutes are not coerced or controlled by pimps or others (see for instance May T et al. For love or money : Pimps and the management of Sex work Police Research paper 134 Home Office www.vawpreventionscotland.org.uk/sites/default/files/Pimps%20and%20the%20Management%20of%20Sex%20Work%20(full%20report).pdf
Pimps are high in the demonology of abolitionists but in reality they are virtually non-existant-and much data show this .Mai N Migrant workers in the UK Sex industry metranet.londonmet.ac.uk/research-units/iset/projects/esrc-migrant-workers.cfm which reported (p4) that “Only a minority, amounting approximately to 6 per cent of female interviewees, felt that they had been deceived and forced into selling sex in circumstances within which they had no share of control or consent” see also “The sex industry in New South Wales: a report to the ministry of health” 2012 prepared by the Kirby Institute , Faculty of medicine NSW www.med.unsw.edu.au/nchecrweb.nsf/resources/SHPReport/$file/NSWSexIndustryReportV4.pdf p22 and also Prostitution I Danmark 2011 www.altinget.dk/misc/Prostitution.pdf , p168 table 8.1 only a small fraction were coerced by another into prostitution (4% overall, the figure for street prostitutes was 26%-but remember Denmark has a large number of street prostitutes who are non-Danish).
Another claim is that childhood and current abuse negates the possibility of consent in prostitution. While it is true that street workers frequently report histories of violent and sexual abuse in childhood this is also the case for many who do not enter prostitution (Abramovitch E 2005 Childhood Sexual Abuse as a Risk Factor for Subsequent Involvement in Sex Work, Journal of Psychology & Human
Sexuality, 17:1-2, 131-146, DOI: 10.1300/J056v17n01_08 concludes “.
^What these studies collectively suggest is that although sexual abuse is common among female prostitutes, it is not evident that these individuals have chosen prostitution as a result of being sexualized at a
young age” in Prostitution I Danmark ^only very few prostitutes mentioned childhood abuse as a precursor to entry-(Theresa Dryvig pers. Comm. 7th Dec 2012) so it is hard to see that consent is negated by past violenceor abuse-and it is certainly not true in the vast majority of prostitutes that work indoors. What it seems to be is that childhood abuse leads to premature home leaving and so survival sex on the street. Clearly the above show that prostitutes are not coerced and are capable of consent.
If coercion by others or past history are not widespread issues, what were the reasons for entering prostitution? Obviously the main draw is financial-as it is for any work. Unless people have private means everyone works for money. 85% of prostitutes agreeing that money was the main incentive (Prostitution I Danmark table 8.2 p 169) but only a few cited 'Forced by economic distress',' Felt forced to do so due to lack of money 'and' Could not get another job as reasons.(table 8.1)
Only in Street prostitution was drug abuse a significant “Thus 54 per cent. of the street prostitutes who responded to the questionnaire say that financing a drug habit has been one of the main reasons why they began selling sex, while the corresponding figures are 2 and 3 per cent. for the female and male escort prostitutes and 0 per cent. for brothel prostitutes” Prostitution i Danmark ^p 171.. Sexual curiosity is mentioned as a factor in entering prostitution by a large proportion of respondents -67% of female escorts mentioning this as a contributory reason (tables 8.1 and 8.3) unsurprisingly no street prostitutes mentioned this as a reason. The data from Denmark is mirrored in data from Australia and the UK. (see for instance Woodward et al (2004) Selling sex in Queensland in 2003 (available at www.pla.qld.gov.au/reportsPublications/sellingSex.htm ) table 13 p 31.
Many enter prostitution because it combines relatively high reward for time spent working. Some intend to remain in prostitution as long as it takes to reach a financial goal (money for a house or to set up a business or get new qualifications) others mention that prostitution means they can fit in working around childcare or study.(Maher J et al 2012 Privileging work not sex: flexibility and employment in the sexual services industry The Sociological Review, Vol. 60, 654–675 DOI: 10.1111/j.1467-954X.2012.02128.x) see also Prostitution i Danmark 2011 op.cit boxes 6.1 and 6.2 p105-6).
It may come as a surprise that some women might be so comfortable with sex that they can pragmatically employ it for income as one might employ any other skill, or might even actually enjoy it (although not generally those involved in street work) or(as cited in my post Tue 20-Aug-13 15:58:04)“
….., or if they do not, find it no more troubling ,demeaning or soul-destroying than many ‘normal’ office factory or other job positions.”(this from a prostitute of 20 years experience in response to Trish Godmans consultation in criminalizing the client in Scotland-now removed from Rhoda Grants website.) This is qualitative opinion is backed up by other contributors to mumsnet who are escorts or ex-escorts (avaboosmummy, becauseeyesaidso, carmenelectra, Catlike, fridakahlo, janethecat, Mandamumu, Minnehaha MissHoneyMoon, ohbella, OFFS and xxcxx )(and other more quantitative studies ( Selling Sex in Queensland op cit p36, Seib C et al 2012 Predicting the job satisfaction of female sex workers in Queensland Australia International Journal of Sexual Health, 24:99–111, 2012 DOI 10.1080/19317611.2011.632073 which reported that “Overall, most sex workers reported positive job satisfaction. Satisfaction was higher in women working legally and was comparable with women from the general population”
However this is not the case for those working the streets ( so while approximately two-thirds of the private workers and those in legal brothels agreed or strongly agreed they would definitely choose sex work if they had to ‘do it over again’. In contrast, over two-thirds of the street workers did not agree. (Selling sex in Queensland op cit. p 36) see also for instance Roxburgh et al Posttraumatic stress disorder among female street-based sex workers in the greater Sydney area, Australia BMC Psychiatry 2006, 6:24 doi:10.1186/1471-244X-6-24). Qualitatively similar results are obtained in the UK (see for instance Church SL The social organization of Sex work Dphil thesis U. of Glasgow theses.gla.ac.uk/1179/ p200 )
Another claim frequently advanced is that prostitution is so awful that over 90% wish to leave (sometimes followed by the qualifier immediately or “escape prostitution”). The actual situation is more complex. So for instance when Danish prostitutes were interviewed they described how hard it was to leave prostitution-the money and the lifestyle it affords can be addictive (Prostitution I Danmark op cit pgs 244 et seq), and realize that increasing age may limit their ability to earn (except for Dominatrices) and some simply get bored and fed up with the job (a reason for leaving many jobs)
When asked about the negative aspects of what they did all prostitutes mention the stigma attached to prostitution, having to disguise what they did from friends and the leading of a double life.
All this is not to suggest that prostitution is unproblematic but to show that the one dimensional view of it as expressed in the “oppression paradigm” as being oppressive, violent and nasty (as exemplified by the post of Beach Thu 12-Sep-13 20:52:46 from an abolitionist web site) is very far from reality which is far more nuanced.
Oh and Beach I will answer your post of Fri 06-Sep-13 19:14:31you will just have to wait a bit longer