Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Original poster

The invisible men project

999 replies

ArmyOfPenguins · 06/05/2013 22:45

I think it's important that the buyers' choices in prostitution are highlighted and shared. This project was linked to on FB. Thoughts? I think it's a great idea.

the-invisible-men.tumblr.com/

OP posts:
Sausageeggbacon · 02/08/2013 09:15

Beach interesting opinion and the question is where does this leave us when we provide sex for our partners even if we are not really in the mood but do it anyway. By your definition that is rape and I guess if our partners provide sex even if they are not really in the mood that would also be sexual assault.

Sometimes we agree to sex because although we are not in the mood, it will make our life easier, make a conversation we want to have easier if he is in a good mood and I am sure that people could think of others. If we go by your definition I assault DH a lot as I have a higher sex drive. Sorry but if consent is smoke and mirrors then there is a lot of rape and assault going on in relationships.

Another example strange but true, I want to get pregnant, I reach the peak of my cycle at the same time as XH gets home from the 4th day of working overtime where he has worked 56 hours. He is really not in the mood but I refuse to do anything until we have made love. Is that assault? By your definition it would have to be.

SinisterSal · 02/08/2013 09:22

Am I understanding you correctly Beachcomber

Please excuse crap writing as kids hanging off me...

Consent is 'Oh go on then, if I must'. You consent to an invasive medical procedure because you want to get better. You consent to sex with a guy from work because you've been drinking, he's pushing your boundaries, you must have given off the wrong signals & it seems rude not to. You consent to sex with a punter because you need the money.

There is always a because. Consent is always a kind of trade off. The list of synonyms above ties into this.

do we have a word better than consent for when the 'because' element isn't there?

SinisterSal · 02/08/2013 09:26

'Another example strange but true, I want to get pregnant, I reach the peak of my cycle at the same time as XH gets home from the 4th day of working overtime where he has worked 56 hours. He is really not in the mood but I refuse to do anything until we have made love. Is that assault? By your definition it would have to be.'

I suppose a lot of that would hinge on whether he wants kids as well.

You said (paraphrasing) If Beachcombers definition is true there is a lot of assaults in relationships. That sounds like you think that invalidates B's definition? It might just be an uncomfortable truth. B's definition may be wrong, but not because being right is too painful!

SinisterSal · 02/08/2013 09:30

Another thing. Sorry for multiple posts.

If B's definition is correct, and as Sausage says people do that a lot anyway to no ill effect doesn't that widen the scope of the term 'sexual assault'?

How will that play out in the real world, will it be like 'Oh sexual assault, nothing to it, just like force feeding chocolate cake' to use a hideous example.

Beachcomber · 02/08/2013 09:56

where does this leave us when we provide sex for our partners even if we are not really in the mood but do it anyway.

Sausageeggbacon it depends. It depends on what you mean by 'sex' and it depends on the decision making process (and the context within which it takes place) of the person who decides to have 'sex' they didn't initially want.

if consent is smoke and mirrors then there is a lot of rape and assault going on in relationships.

Yes.

He is really not in the mood but I refuse to do anything until we have made love. Is that assault? By your definition it would have to be.

Only you and your DH can know that. See above WRT decision making process and context.

SinisterSal There is always a because. Consent is always a kind of trade off. The list of synonyms above ties into this.

Yes.

do we have a word better than consent for when the 'because' element isn't there?

It is an entirely different concept, dynamic and interaction. You don't 'consent' to sex you want, you just have it/do it/participate in it. Consent doesn't figure at all. Consent only figures when sex is not wanted i.e. in the context of rape.

Beachcomber · 02/08/2013 09:58

Also;

It might just be an uncomfortable truth. B's definition may be wrong, but not because being right is too painful!

This is consciousness raising. And yes, it is often painful.

Beachcomber · 02/08/2013 10:30

to no ill effect

This is key.

Effects/consequences of unwanted or ambivalent sex are vast and varied and the degree of ill effect too. And certainly with PIV (and other forms of penetration), gendered.

You made an assumption of 'no ill effect' SinisterSal. Although, of course, this is what we women in particular are conditioned to think.

Bunnylion · 02/08/2013 10:56

I'd never thought deeply the concept of "consent" before but beachcomber is completely right.

How can you define a law solely by the end result of an often complex situation - they had sex and as she never said the word "no" by the law of consent it was not rape.

The OP link has been updated since I last looked at it a couple of months ago. Bearing the specific field reports on the link in mind, how can anyone agree with a law that hinges on the flawed concept of consent?

Bunnylion · 02/08/2013 10:58

Apologies for multi-post but I meant to add, if my DH wants sex and I don't then we don't have sex.

rosabud · 02/08/2013 11:06

Thank you Beachcomber for your excellently worded arguments about consent. I have often thought this and tried to articulate it in arguments before and failed. You're are right in everything you say about consent being a patriarchal tool, you have really helped me to think in a more focussed and perceptive way about this.

Beachcomber · 02/08/2013 11:16

You're welcome rosabud.

I learnt to conceptualise it like that from other feminists (you know who you are). Like you, I was uncomfortable with the construct of 'consent' but couldn't quite put my finger on why and I was helped to get there by clear headed radical feminists.

This quote in particular was a lightbulb moment for me.

"The deeper problem is that women are socialized to passive receptivity; may have or perceive no alternative to acquiescence; may prefer it to the escalated risk of injury and the humiliation of a lost fight; submit to survive. Also, force and desire are not mutually exclusive under male supremacy. So long as dominance is eroticized, they never will be. Some women eroticize dominance and submission; it beats feeling forced. Sexual intercourse may be deeply unwanted, the women would never have initiated it, yet no force may be present. So much force may have been used that the woman never risked saying no. Force may be used, yet the woman prefer the sex - to avoid more force or because she, too, eroticizes dominance. Women and men know this. Considering rape as violence not sex evades, at the moment it most seems to confront, the issue of who controls women's sexuality and the dominance/submission dynamic that has defined it. When sex is violent, women may have lost control over what is done to them, but absence of force does not ensure the presence of that control. Nor, under conditions of male dominance, does the presence of force make an interaction nonsexual. If sex is normally something men do to women, the issue is less whether there was force than whether consent is a meaningful concept."

Beachcomber · 02/08/2013 11:18

Forgot to say it is from Toward a Feminist Theory of the State by Catharine MacKinnon.

Bunnylion · 02/08/2013 11:25

Bloody hell, well there's my lightbulb moment for the day - thank you Beachcomber.

rosabud · 02/08/2013 11:34

I'm going to read that, thank you.

YoniTime · 02/08/2013 11:36

I'm also uncomfortable with the construct of consent. Consent, when it comes to sex, makes me think of abuse. "But she consented!" Because of what? Cohersion, fear...?

You shouldn't have to "consent" to sex, you should obviously, sexually desire to have sex.

YoniTime · 02/08/2013 11:44

So I was going to say, lots of thought provoking comments here. You ladies are so smart! Thanks But I don't think I understand the MacKinnon quote.

Beachcomber · 02/08/2013 12:07

YoniTime - MacKinnon packs a lot into that paragraph and it does take some getting your head around as it alludes to the themes of patriarchal domination/submission and patriarchal PIV centric narrative as being inherently oppressive to women; both of these themes are challenging and relatively obscure outwith feminist discourse.

You can read it in the context of the chapter of the book it is from here if that helps.

Rape : On Coercion and Consent

SinisterSal · 02/08/2013 13:35

'You made an assumption of 'no ill effect' SinisterSal. Although, of course, this is what we women in particular are conditioned to think.'

I didn't make the assumption exactly, but I felt it was implicit in what SausageEggBacon said. (I did put it in meaning to go back to it but was called away for a while).
I agree it is key, and I agree it is heavily influenced by conditioning.

Beachcomber · 02/08/2013 13:47

I hear you SinisterSal - I absolutely didn't mean that to come across as some sort of accusation. It was an observation of how women and men are conditioned in male centric culture to be blind to all manner of sexual violation/risk.

And it is key because it is a big old pandora's box that patriarchy does not want women to examine. (Which is exactly what MacKinnon does and does so well.)

BasilBabyEater · 02/08/2013 18:16

"Sex a woman doesn't want, is rape. This is the feminist analysis of rape. This is the analysis from the female perspective.

Patriarchal analysis is that rape is sex a woman does not consent to. This is a male/PIV centric perspective.

Consent can be bought, manipulated, influenced and coerced.

"Consent" is a smoke and mirrors patriarchal concept used to allow men to get away with raping women. "Consent" is a rape myth - possibly the biggest one of all. "

Wow. Another light bulb moment thanks to MN feminist board. Thanks Beachcomber, that's so succinctly put.

SinisterSal · 02/08/2013 20:25

Gotcha Beachcomber Grin
And agree with Basil in the post above. very clear.

minnehaha · 02/08/2013 22:20

What a load of f***g bollocks!

minnehaha · 02/08/2013 22:33

Sorry for the outburst, but as they say, until you've walked a mile in my shoes etc., etc. It's all well and good harping on about the 'myth' of the happy hooker, but all of you are likewise swallowing the myths.

scallopsrgreat · 02/08/2013 23:19

Thank you Beachcomber for your great articulation about consent and the Catherine MacKinnon quote. Another one who has had a lightbulb moment. It's helped explain what I knew in my heart but didn't know why I knew it IYSWIM.

CaptChaos · 03/08/2013 06:36

Another thanking beachcomber for the lightbulb moment. I've had a chance to mull over the MacKinnon quote and it does make absolute sense.

I've also only just read the definition of rape in law, my assumptions about what is defined as rape were slightly off to say the least. Would I be wrong in thinking that, even should a prostitute manage to bring a prosecution against a punter for rape, he would be able to use the fact that he had paid her as his defence wrt to him reasonably believing she had consented? How then would a prostitute ever be able to see their rapist punished? Also given that, by definition, sex with a prostitute is rape, how can anyone justify legalising it?

More thinking aloud, so apologies, so glad to have this relatively safe space in which to formulate and test out ideas.