Radfem 2013 and the MRAs

[MooncupGoddess]

As many of you will remember, the Radfem 2012 conference in London was explicitly open only to born women and consequently attracted lots of condemnation and anger from people who saw this as transphobic. It was kicked out of its original venue at Conway Hall and went underground (very successfully in the end).

This year Radfem 2013 has not explicitly banned transwomen... but instead it's come under attack from Men's Rights Activists, who have staged a demo at the planned venue, the London Irish Centre, while making lots of unpleasant and ridiculous claims about how radical feminists want to murder small boys and the like. As a result the venue is threatening to cancel the booking.

www.mralondon.org/

bugbrennan.com/2013/04/20/statement-from-rad-fem-2013/

I have mixed feelings about the whole trans issue but have no hesitation in declaring the MRAs utter misogynist knobbers and am disappointed the London Irish Centre has seemingly caved into them.

"Could the religious warnings (ie Lilith and Eve) be a simple warning to men about the 'true' nature of women at that time?"

WTF does that even mean?

What are you trying to ask/ say there?

Hi Laz

If you like, then, ignoring all your previous posts and just as a conversational point, which would you prefer?.

"My values may be different to yours but they are not wrong."

Lazarus you have an inability to assess scale and proportion. That is a defect you have - and not a relative matter.

Hi Doctrine and Basil... I wonder what comfort Lazarus would be as a hospital visitor to a patient tanked up on morphine, jaw wired together, face swollen, ribs broken , nose flat and teeth missing...

"Think about how much worse it could be- some people get falsely accused of GBH- count yourself lucky you aren't one of them"....

Basil. The post below is the one you keep dipping in to.

It is reposted in its entirety. It was in response to me (having a dip in to what MRA groups are out there and listing a few) listing that there was a group(s) seeking anonymity for those accused of rape.

I believe it makes my view point very clear.

*'Yes, I am actually against revealing the identity of ALL accused, unless guilt is proven or in a probability of guilt/probability of help balance - a decision to be taken by a judge or other responsible person after due consideration.

False/malicious accusations are as odious as the actual act, if not more so. The belief that someone can just shrug the accusation off, on being cleared, is absurd.

These sort of cases are merely the lead cases, with the massive change in media over the years people can not just 'shrug' accusations off. No matter how hard.

With background checks on job applicants becoming ever more prevalent even accusations of quite mundane crimes could affect the individual unduly. The internet means you can't even move to a new town/area.

The basic premise is 'innocent until proven guilty', even Romans had this outlook, the burden of proof was on the accuser not the accused.'*

This is the whole post. If you read the WHOLE post you will understand it. You seem to 'cherry pick' whichever part triggers you the most emotionally, or indeed the part you feel you can pick me apart the easiest.

I will explain in detail.

The basic tenet of British law (and sense of fair play) is 'innocent until proven guilty'. This is (IMHO) an overarching principle of our legal system.

No matter how heinous the crime, how disreputable the accused or how lowly the victim our system weigh the events and acts accordingly in a fair way.

In this modern world we live in, we have computers, internet and a vast array of media. This has (IMHO) led to a sort of 'mob justice' scenario. How many times do we see a particularly shifty looking person in the paper, listed as accused. The picture itself (on every news stand) showing all and sundry how shifty and guilty this person must be.

We also have the old staples of 'gossip' in the community.

The accused are no longer 'innocent until proven guilty' but automatically guilty. If let off they are seen as 'beating the system' rather than the system weighing up the probability of guilt and finding them not guilty.

So, my position is that those accused of any crime, so this affects ALL crimes (ALL CRIMES Basil, ALL CRIMES as in every possibility, not just one or a few, ALL CRIMES. Please ask for clarification on what ALL CRIMES means if you are hard of understanding), should be protected by anonymity as a basic right.

Unless the investigators can prove to a competent person that the release of this information is valid and the benefits to the case, outweigh potential harm to the individual.

Only the truly foolish believe people can walk away from accusations of wrongdoing with no stain on their character. Even if you are going for a menial job in a shop - should the owner/manager find out you were once 'accused' of theft, how do they then think of that individual?

Now then, Basil, just to confirm, which crimes do I believe should be protected? Please tick one.

a. Just crimes that the reader thinks I am talking about.
b. Just crimes that the reader gets emotional about.
c. All.
d. The crimes that will rally the most support against the individual poster by purposely mis-reading their intentions.
e. I don't know.

Let's not have any more silly 'comparisons' of victim of v falsely accused of various serious crimes.

Bubbles, you have a fair few character flaws yourself.

I've been in the position 'of visitor' to people who have been beaten up. Oddly, I didn't say any such thing.

That said, at no point did I make any such specific comparisons in my posts in the first place.

You and others have used the rape and GBH angle in order to rubbish my statement, without actually rebutting it.

Traps for fools, made from twisted words by rascals.

Loz, why not just admit either the statement is wrong (you don't actually think this) or fess up and admit that you do indeed think that the loss of respect is worse than rape. But you can't can you. And this proves oh so succinctly that what matters most to men, is what other men think of them. It matters most whether they can maintain their standing within the social order, maintain a job and private property rights in a society where 2/3rds of all man made laws relate to property rights, where bank robbers go down for life and rapists walk free. Of course men don't walk around living in fear of being raped, instead they walk around in fear of false accusations.........why might they find themselves vulnerable to this? by their own actions of course.

Mini.

The statement as written stands. Innocent until proven guilty in ALL forums for all crimes.

At no point have I said that rape would be better than loss of respect.

My standing within the social order doesn't really bother me as much as you seem to believe, but I wouldn't say it doesn't bother me at all. Oddly I am used to being seen as something totally different or lesser to what I am.

Strangely it probably bothers you more. After all you are involved in a movement to raise your social positioning, job prospects and (I assume) even out these man made laws on property rights.

These rapists walking free, is that after being found guilty by a jury or based on something else?

Would you like to be stood in the dock, knowing you would lose name and liberty due to anything other than 'beyond reasonable doubt'?

Or is it just men that should be exposed to such treatment?

Wasn't William Roache calling for anonymity for men charged with rape? Just before he was arrested and charged with rape himself. Funny that.

Sooner or later, MRA's always get onto the topic of false rape allegations. Always.

These rapists walking free, is that after being found guilty by a jury or based on something else?

It could be based on accepted figures that 9 out of 10 rapes go unreported.

It could be based on accepted figures that 9 out of 10 rapes go unreported.

Even more so - the habit of 'no criming' rape by the police, negligence and sabotage of rape-kits, a whole host of misogynist police cock-ups, along with victim-blaming and prejudiced juries amongst other things

I just want to be clear the 95% refers to reported rapes. Most don't end up in court. When multiplied by the huge number of unreported rapes, the number of men raping with impunity is mind-bogglingly high.

Misogynist police... well, I suppose we haven't had the 'm' word for few posts.

'prejudiced juries'?

Juries represent the people, the people form juries. If you are going to lock someone away you MUST be sure that they did it.

The legal system we have is as fair and just as it can be, what would you propose in its place?

Diplock courts?

Twice in six months I have had to act as advocate for someone dealing with police misogyny. Once in relation to rape, second in relation to DV. Both times, same victim who I suspect has PD. I guess the police officer interviewing picked up on this too but without knowing the background of the victim, hasn't understood the complex social reasons or even considered that childhood abuse is also an issue. NO he just made a huge set of assumptions and preceded to tell her how it was going to be. Basically shut up and put up.

Hi Laz

Being pro anonymity for all accused of crimes (and presumably all victims of crime?) is not the same as thinking that false/malicious accusations are as odious as the actual act, if not more so. Those are two separate statements. Do you stand by both of them, or just the first one?

TVM.

'BubblesOfBliss Sun 12-May-13 15:35:37

I just want to be clear the 95% refers to reported rapes. Most don't end up in court. When multiplied by the huge number of unreported rapes, the number of men raping with impunity is mind-bogglingly high.'

Unreported crimes shouldn't count. How can that figure be in any way reliable? How do you gauge if the events happened as described or even at all? Who collates these 'unreported' figures? How do they know they are not missing a a lot of victims out of the count?

How do you arrive at a figure of 38% of victims don't tell anybody? By definition, they haven't told anybody.

If you can explain how those to figures are arrived at, I'm all ears.

www.guardian.co.uk/society/2013/apr/23/rape-conviction-rate-high

63% conviction rate of those charged.

Remembering that by the crimes very nature it usually boils down to a 'her word v his word' trial, I'd say the Police and CPS do a fair job.

If the proof isn't there, there is little point bringing it to court. The current surge of claims from the 60's, 70's etc against a number of prominent figures recently, are going to be added to that figure (95% reported do't result in convictions) are they not?

Do the police really stand much of a chance in bringing those reports to charging? Can the CPS really bring those charged to conviction?

Yes, Laz - misogynist police. Dealing with rape cases and pressurising women to withdraw complaints.

Google IPCC, Sapphire unit and rape and have a read of what comes up.

Then have a look at these - rape myths that are pervasive in our society, amongst both males and females who sit on juries.

Funny how Laz "I've never even heard of an MRA before this thread" Lozenge is suddenly such an expert on rape, isn't it?

Hi Laz

In a "her word against his word" scenario, in what proportion of scenarios do you think someone who has committed a crime is lying about it and in what proportion do you think someone has made up a story about a crime being committed?

Hey Laz, take a look at THIS

Sabrina, I am reading much... like the Stern report. And a few other sites, from all angles... although oddly not from what, I assume, are MRA sites. There naming puts me off.

Doctrine, still fantasizing about me being beaten up or raped?

I've been lurking on this thread for what feels like weeks. I have loved the discussions between Bubbles and Mini - I've learnt a lot, both of you.

Laz, your tedious posts illustrate beautifully why feminists might choose to have a conference for feminists - so they don't have to go back to square one every fucking time they discuss anything, just to accommodate the numpty who can't be bothered to do the most basic research into what feminism is about.

Nice name change though LazEruss, that 'e' really suits you

I'm sure you'll read much that meets your approval on every single MRA site you can find, Laz. Now that this site has drawn MRA's (that you'd never previously heard of) to your attention, of course.

However, I was referring to stuff like this.

And bear in mind this is only one example.

Always interesting when there's a namechange isn't it?

Funny feeling of deja vu here. Sabrina's right, the topic does always get around to rape in the end.

It's just that I tend to use the phrase "it's X's word vs Y's word" in situations like when my DC each claim the other pushed them ie when I think there's about a 50:50 chance of either lying. But you might use it differently.