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Original poster

Guardian article on sex workers and disabled people

408 replies

fllowtheyellowbrickroad · 11/04/2013 21:43

m.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/apr/10/sex-workers-disabled-people

Has this already been done? Will put together something literate soon. An currently choking and splitting too much.

OP posts:
Spero · 14/04/2013 23:18

And I understand what you are saying LRD.

I read 'So much pretty' last month (shamefully I recommendation of India Knight). It made me feel quite sick. I do think that a lot of men really hate women and do commodify them. And the exploitation of vulnerable women into prostitution is certainly part of this.

But I think professional sex surrogates are a million miles away from this. But I can understand why people don't agree with this.

Leithlurker · 14/04/2013 23:20

Mooncup lots of people CHOOSE not to have sex, having no choice being dictated to as to what is permisable is how forced anything, celibacy, abortion, FMG works. Having no choice is the issue it reinforces the second class nature and the oppression of disabled people, what are human rights for if they are not to give individuals the freedom of thought and expression. Should women be forced in to sterilisation after 2 children?

Also mooncup like I said to Maryaanne earlier, spero and at least three others have said exactly the same as I have, or turn that round I have agreed with Spero and many others on what we mean by "rights" please stop trying to make out I have any other different agenda from spero. I find it to be goady and since it appears it is up to the perceiver as to what they think the intention of a poster is, that is my perception of you and Mariaan who continuously try and personalise this issue. Please do go back and check I am absolutly certain you will find I have not endorsed prostitution or the right of men disabled or not to have access to an unwilling female body, or male one come to that.

Spero · 14/04/2013 23:20

Linus you seem to have misunderstood my point so completely, I am at a loss how you interpreted what I was saying as that.

I was saying I agreed it would be wrong and dangerous to expect you could ring up and order a prostitute. I recognise the very real risk that you are then engaging with someone who is not invovled in their career of choice.

I went on to say that a trained and professional sex surrogate must be very far away from that scenario. I agreed with what you said about therapists.

And yet you tell me that I am saying something very different? Don't understand. Sorry you have reached that conclusion but I hope if you re read and reconsider you will agree it is profoundly wrong.

Spero · 14/04/2013 23:22

ooops sorry Liinus, I think you were talking to LL there.

Please ignore post. I think I have now clearly demonstrated the foolishness of attempting to multi task in this arena.

MarianneM · 14/04/2013 23:23

Leith, could you try to make your posts a bit more legible?

My head hurts just trying to decipher what you are saying.

LinusVanPelt · 14/04/2013 23:24

Spero, my last post was addressed to Leith. Sorry it wasn't clear. I mentioned you in the middle bit because I think I do understand your argument and I was using it to contrast with his/hers.

The "You on the other hand" bit is a response to Leith's comment which I quoted at the top of my post. Sorry again for being unclear about who I was talking to Blush

LinusVanPelt · 14/04/2013 23:25

X-post Spero :)

Spero · 14/04/2013 23:25

It wasn't your fault! I am watching TV, the dog is having a loud dream about chasing something and I am not giving this topic the respect it deserves by not giving it my full attention.

Leithlurker · 14/04/2013 23:28

Linus where have I said or how have I given the impression that my stance differs from spero's? We have both said time and again that both partners need to be willing, is this another attempt to suggest I condone rape?

LRDtheFeministDragon · 14/04/2013 23:29

I've not read 'So much pretty' - I will look out for it, thanks.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 14/04/2013 23:32

'lots of people CHOOSE not to have sex, having no choice being dictated to as to what is permisable is how forced anything, celibacy, abortion, FMG works.'

Did you mean to compare celibacy to abortion and FGM?

That is disgusting.

There is an obvious and basic difference between being forced to do something, or having something done to you, and a lack of something.

Celibacy is not 'forced' on anyone. That is not what the word means.

FGM is forced on women.

Abortion is forced on women.

Celibacy is an absence of sex.

You cannot force an absence on someone, can you?

AnyFucker · 14/04/2013 23:33

LL , several different people have said now how uncomfortable your repeated assertion that "disabled people should not be forced into celibacy" makes them

you might want to modify your language, if you are concerned that people are getting the wrong impression from your posts

because how would you visualise your solution to that dilemma ?

"forced" or undoing that scenario no more signifies a consensual transaction than "prostituted woman" does

don't you get that ?

AnyFucker · 14/04/2013 23:35

cross posted with LRD

and several others who are rather aghast at the term "forced" being anywhere near appropriate

Spero · 14/04/2013 23:46

I can understand why LL uses the word 'forced' when talking about celibacy and I would ask for some understanding from the able bodied.

I can see why you feel uncomfortable with it, but for those of us who grew up knowing that we were treated as something 'other' and were not able to join in with the rites of passage that others seemed to attain so effortlessly... it makes you hurt. Celibacy is not something we have chosen, I can see how it feels like something 'forced' upon you.

Yes, yes, I know I am not alone, I am nothing special, LOTS of people don't get to have sex with anyone they really like. But the problem with a visible physical disability is there will be lots of people as you grow up quite keen to point out to you WHY they wouldn't have sex with you. I don't know what kind of pain those sorts of people are in and I don't really care. They seem to want to hurt and to rub your nose in why you are different.

It can be very difficult. Someone at college slept with me for a bet. That hurt quite a lot, as you can imagine.

so I think we all need to cut each other a little slack.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 14/04/2013 23:51

I don't feel uncomfortable about it - I'm sorry, maybe I should, but I don't.

I can't know how what you describe feels and I respect that you are talking about something I can't know about. And that is disgusting that someone slept with you for a bet. That's appalling.

But, sorry, 'forced celibacy' compared to FGM or abortion really bothers and upsets me. And I think it touches on a central issue here.

The only way celibacy could be 'forced', is if you think sex is a right. And if you think sex is a right, you are faced with a problem, because sex is about consent and rape is about the right to have sex.

I am not trying to say it's not shit, and I do understand where you are coming from, and I honestly don't know where I'd stand on all of this if I were disabled. It'd be absurd for me to pretend I did.

What I do hope I wouldn't do, is to compare a lack of sex to someone aborting a pregnancy against the mother's will or peforming FGM.

CuckooBird · 14/04/2013 23:53

Spero, I have only read the first page of this thread but after reading your comments I need go no further. I welled up reading your posts; not because I pity you but because I can feel your rage at having to deal with some of the arseholes on here and in RL who would dare to pretend they know what the fuck they are talking about with regards to being a disabled person denied a sex life.

Leithlurker · 14/04/2013 23:54

Thank you AF:, point taken.

Spero · 14/04/2013 23:58

Thanks Cuckoo.

Its not just about being denied sex, I think this is the point LL has been making.

Denial of sex is part of being denied your humanity. I won't have sex with you because you are disabled - I won't marry you, I don't want a family with you, I don't want my friends to see me with you...

Its all on a continuum. Yes, that sounds pretty bleak, I am not trying to claim my experiences are universal to all disabled people. They are not. But I know I am not alone.

So it pushes big buttons and does cause a fair amount of introspection and probably self pity. Which will influence use of language and examples given which may strike someone without that particular back story as ill judged.

AnyFucker · 15/04/2013 00:05

No

I don't accept that

I would only accept the misguided use of terms like "forced" from an uneducated person, an immature person, someone who has no understanding of the issues

I don't accept it, and no-one else should

Disability is not a get out clause for using such terms, if the understanding is there

I don't believe that is the case on this thread, so no special considerations from me, sorry

Spero · 15/04/2013 00:08

Sorry you won't accept that. Peoples experiences mould them in many ways, not all of them pleasant.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 15/04/2013 00:08

But who is denying sex?

Either it is society, or it is the responsibility of all people - collectively - to give you, or me, or anyone who can't get it, sex.

If it is society, then fine, let's educate society, let's break down these ideas that idiots have.

If it's people - then how do you cope with the fact that they have to consent, and they have to consent in such a way that doesn't condone rape of other people?

Spero · 15/04/2013 00:11

Individuals deny sex - which they have every right to do. That they do so often in a deliberately cruel way is a reflection of the way that people generally think of disabled people which must be a societal problem, the way we organise ourselves, what is given prominence and respect.

I went to a Romanian orphanage in 1991. People there still threw stones at the disabled children. We are not so very far from that even now.

I repeat, I genuinely do not see how professional and trained sex surrogates can be seen as endorsing rape. So that is how I deal with that problem.

CuckooBird · 15/04/2013 00:13

Linus, are you actually trying to dictate the circumstances under which it would not be acceptable to sell one's body for sex? Rent, for fuck's sake..must be enjoying it (that rules out most able-bodied married women, then). Who are you to set the parameters of what constitutes non-exploitative sex?

LRDtheFeministDragon · 15/04/2013 00:14

It is appallingly sad.

I do see that.

I think that any situation where someone pays for sex, makes the idea of paying for sex more acceptable.

Perhaps if we lived in a world where prostitution wasn't the way it is, it could theoretically work, I don't know. But I'm sure it can't in our world, because in our world, people will always justify abuse of women with this sort of thing. IMO.

Spero · 15/04/2013 00:17

Even it it was seen more in a therapeutic context? As a way of helping disabled people attain a better self image?