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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Guardian article on sex workers and disabled people

408 replies

fllowtheyellowbrickroad · 11/04/2013 21:43

m.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/apr/10/sex-workers-disabled-people

Has this already been done? Will put together something literate soon. An currently choking and splitting too much.

OP posts:
Spero · 15/04/2013 00:39

Yes, Cuckoo, I would love to know where all these shag happy disabled pepole hang out. Never met any at university, at work... still waiting. Maybe I am just doubly unlucky.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 15/04/2013 00:40

I've got to say ... it seems obvious to me that, yes, non-disabled people do get a say here - at the very least, what about the people who would be being sex therapists? Would they all be required to be disabled too, or would people like AF be allowed in so long as they didn't express any opinion or assume their consent mattered in this debate?

CuckooBird · 15/04/2013 00:40

LRD, you have no right to declare sex as 'not a right' when it is freely available to you as an able-bodied person. The arrogance on here is staggering.

Spero · 15/04/2013 00:41

Night all.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 15/04/2013 00:41

spero - sorry, I cross posted ... but honestly ... yes, you have the right to do what you like with your body. So does anyone. No, no-one has the right (IMO) to have sex with someone who doesn't want it. A financial transaction fouls consent. If someone consented, they wouldn't need paying.

LinusVanPelt · 15/04/2013 00:41

Who are you to set the parameters of what constitues non-exploitative sex?

Er, I'm a person with an opinion on the matter, Cuckoo - isn't that the question that we're all discussing here? Who am I to express an opinion on the subject being discussed? A stranger on a forum, that's who. What's your point?

My point, since you didn't seem to understand it the first time, is that I think I can respect Spero's perspective that transactional sex, in theory, doesn't necessarily have to be exploitative or otherwise 'wrong'. Not a million miles away from what SGB said which you just applauded.

And to illustrate my point I tried to think of a few examples where it might be the case that sex is transactional, but not exploitative.

But knowing what I know about brothels and street prostitution and 'call girl' agencies (I work in a related field and have supported many women who are or who have been prostituted, all of them either trafficked, addicted, or prostituted from before the age of legal consent), yes, I think it's fairly fucking obvious that there are "parameters of what constitutes non-exploitative sex". And prostitution, as it is experienced by most women desperate enough or controlled enough to become involved in it, is exploitative, abusive, and devastating.

If you're going to make any kind of argument at all that it's okay to buy sex, which it seems is the view you're taking, then of course there are "parameters" Hmm - what's the alternative? To say that it's okay to pay for sex in any and all circumstances, regardless of the vulnerability of the person you're buying it from? Is that your opinion?

LinusVanPelt · 15/04/2013 00:42

Good night, Spero. Thanks for your thought-provoking posts and for sharing your perspective and experiences.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 15/04/2013 00:42

Sex is not a right.

Sex without consent is rape.

This is not me declaring anything - it is the law. It is very basic. Rapists who force people to have sex against their will are criminals. No-one has the right to have sex with someone else against their will.

OK?

It has nothing to do with whether or not I am disabled.

Leithlurker · 15/04/2013 00:42

I am afraid it is a devisive issue as feminist and disability rights activist have diffrent ideaologies on this and other issues. It is always my hope that by recognising that this conflict exists, and that it is never a question of one set of rights trumping another, that we reach compromise. We need each other far more now than we ever did, the society that both groups want is not that different, but any hope of ever getting the society that we both need and want is being ripped away from us by capitalism and conservatism, and the patriarchy, and a disabelist mindset.

How is it that seeking sex is ok but having it is not? So we can find it, we know where it is and we know who will supply it, we just cannot have it? weird!

AnyFucker · 15/04/2013 00:42

Sex is not "freely available" to anyone, unless you feel it is your right to take it without consent

Some people do not regard prostitution as sex without consent

Opposers of prostitution feel this way, it's not a new concept

AnyFucker · 15/04/2013 00:43

sorry, I should have said some people do not view prostitution as sex with consent

LRDtheFeministDragon · 15/04/2013 00:45

'How is it that seeking sex is ok but having it is not? So we can find it, we know where it is and we know who will supply it, we just cannot have it? weird!'

Erm, because the first bit is where you seek consent. And the second bit is dependent on getting consent.

It's like, the first one ... isn't rape ... and the second one is ... um ... rape unless you get consent?

Crikey, do I really have to explain this?

No, you cannot 'just have it'.

AnyFucker · 15/04/2013 00:50

It's quite basic stuff, that people feel should be waived if someone has a disability ?

Really.

CuckooBird · 15/04/2013 00:54

Linus, I took umbrage at the patronising tone of your post to Spero: 'See? Look, here are the ways in which some women are exploited. Can you see how this may be harmful, dear? She is only doing this to pay her rent' This post-feminist obsession with stamping out exploitation drives me nuts. Do you have a cleaner? A lady who does your ironing? Ever paid anyone to look after your kids?: all of them women forced into slavery by white, middle-class women.

For some disabled people, the only way to explore their sexual identity/get their rocks off, whatever, is to pay for it. It is liberal bullshittery to pretend otherwise. So..are you - this champion of eradicating prostitution - prepared to rescue exploited sex workers and volunteer your sexual services to disabled men? No..I thought not.

OldLadyKnowsNothing · 15/04/2013 00:55

You were right enough with "Some people do not regard prostitution as sex without consent", AF, just as you were right enough with your correction.

For all of those repeating claims that any given prostitute is "very likely" to be trafficked, can you give us a link, please? Because Operations Pentameter I and II found very little evidence of this, despite raiding every known brothel in the UK.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 15/04/2013 00:57

Um ... I clean, I iron. I've occasionally been paid to do it.

We're not all as privileged as you obviously are.

If you read the thread, you will find that people have already addressed the issue of whether or not it's crucial to change society so that disabled people have more options than recourse to prostitutes.

You'll find the answer was 'yes', it is crucial.

CuckooBird · 15/04/2013 00:59

Goodnight, Spero, I'm off to bed, too. Can't take any more of this disingenuity disguised as feminism.

CuckooBird · 15/04/2013 01:06

OldLady, thank fuck for a voice of reason. The wimmin on here are bloody obsessed with trafficking and yet they've never met a prostitute (or been disabled) in their lives.

LinusVanPelt · 15/04/2013 01:08

I don't know why you decided to put quotes around the first part of that post addressed to me, Cuckoo, seeing as you were not quoting me, but just making shit up that you imagined I'd said.

And no, I don't have someone else to do my cleaning and ironing.

And no, I don't want to volunteer my sexual services.

What the Fuck?

LRDtheFeministDragon · 15/04/2013 01:10

I've met both prostitutes and disabled people.

What rubbish you are talking.

Much of my ideas about all this come from listening to prostituted women. And the people I know who're disabled would be disgusted by what you seem to imagine they want.

LinusVanPelt · 15/04/2013 01:10

BTW, It's odd that you took umbrage on Spero's behalf and found my tone patronising toward her, when she did not appear to have anything like that reaction. Because I guess she read what I actually said, and didn't imagine "can you see?"s and "dear"s where there were none.

Your reaction is completely bizarre.

LinusVanPelt · 15/04/2013 01:11

That post is addressed to Cuckoo , of course. Though I really don't know why I'm bothering.

vera99 · 15/04/2013 08:47

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

Spero · 15/04/2013 09:10

Just skimmed through the comments on that punternet thread and it rather depressingly confirms what I believe about a lot of internet discussions - most people are simply enjoying writing up their own prejudice without any real attempt to engage or expand their argument.

What a waste of the internet.

Had they bothered to read I think they could have acknowledged the basis of a real discussion had happened here, but o no it is much more fun to simply trot out tired out tropes about frustrated mumsnetters.

One person appears to have attempted to point this out to them, but they do not appear to be able to process that comment.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 15/04/2013 09:15

Ignore them, might as well.