sexual advances - the big question

[BramshawHill]

BBC the big question is currently discussing whether sexual advances should be accepted as a part of life.

The first speaker has said it weakens men and women if women complain about it every time, and that it IS a part of life.

Anyone else watching? Thoughts?

First time posting, hello btw!

[KRITIQ]

Not happy with the use of the term "typical nutter," or suggesting that there is something distinct and highly spottable about men who "behave inappropriately" with women or people in general. It's as though they can be disregarded because they are not like "normal" men (quite apart from the ridiculous suggestion that it is the result of mental illness.)

Again, this is something that is an every day, lived experience for nearly ALL women - to be approached by men who believe they are within their rights to demand their attention and often become hostile when this is not given. It's also being approached by men who have the expressed purpose of embarrassing, upsetting and/or frightening women because they get a buzz out of it and that's more important to them than the negative impact on the woman or girl.

There is ample evidence in everything from the British Crime survey to academic research (look yourselves if you are genuinely interested,) to show that sexual harassment is predominately men against women. Because you are a man, you have the privilege of disregarding this, dismissing women's experiences as "assumptions" and just plain not giving a toss. Even if you would never engage in sexually harassing behaviour yourself, your dismissal of this is effectively collusion with those men who DO choose to behave in this way. Insisting it's "no big thang," gives them license to continue with your blessing.

[larrygrylls]

SirEdmund,

How would relationships ever form without sexual advances? Do you want to limit relationships only to those mutually arranged through friends/family, where both parties know the other's intentions ahead of meeting one another? Or do you want to turn things around 180 degrees and make it only acceptable for a woman to make a sexual advance towards a man?

It is never going to fly. Have you never heard of groups of both sexes going "out on the pull" of an evening? Or two work colleagues dating? Someone has to ask the other one out to make it happen (AKA make a "sexual advance").

If you do not want to accept sexual advances, what would you like to replace them with?

[Dazzler159]

Mooncup

I can see why people get frustrated but this is often because they fail to adequately read text that's been posted.

They then retort with some weird interpretation of what they think they've read.

I'm sorry but I'm not going round in circles explaining when you've made a clear error in interpretation. At the expense of sounding patronising a second time, please re-read and you will realise what you're saying is irrelevant.

[SirEdmundFrillary]

You're being disengenuous.

[AbigailAdams]

It isn't a choice of the situations we have been describing/arranged marriages/women only approaches. There is another way. Men respect women's boundaries.

[runningforthebusinheels]

What Kritiq said.

I have oodles of experiences - too many to recall - as a student and a young woman travelling around, in pubs, on the street, on public transport, at work, where I have been subjected to obviously unwanted attention from men. Men who are not "typical nutters" either.

It really is an occupational hazard as a young woman - and as Kritiq says - men do not suffer it in the same way as women do. Hence Larry/Dazzlers easy dismissal of it.

It doesn't happen to me as much as it used to. I'm a mother of 3 now - I tend to drive to a lot of places, and am not out and about as much as I was when I was younger. But it still happens - when I'm out alone it seems to be open season for men to comment on me or somehow accost me.

It really is awful - awful that as women we just learn to live with it.

[Dazzler159]

SirEdmundFrillary Thu 07-Mar-13 14:01:22

Should sexual advances be accepted as a part of life, was the question.

You say yes. I say no.



That's not what we are saying and have not been saying that at all.



As per the program it was agreed that flirting and sexual advances were a part of life. People give signs and act upon it. Sometimes we get it wrong and that's ok providing no means no and we accept rejection honourably.

It's the persistent ones, power trip ones, groping, manhandling etc. that is not appropriate and shouldn't be tolerated by anyone. No one is disputing that yet we keep going round in circles. I hear what you're all saying quite clearly and am not denying anyone's experiences. Why you should think otherwise is beyond me as it smacks of no one actually listening to us!

[SirEdmundFrillary]

Facepalm as much as you like, you havne't answered my question.

[WhitegoldWielder]

For example Dazzler has anyone male or female demand that you 'smile'?

Has anyone simply shouted at you 'nice cock'?

Has anyone sat next to you reading a newspaper/magazine with a picture of a nearly naked man and drawn your attention to it?

Has anyone intimidated you in a lift?

Has anyone interrupted you in the middle of a conversation to ask 'hello gentleman can I buy you a drink'?

[AbigailAdams]

I think it is because you are insisting on bringing up scenarios we aren't arguing against Dazzler. We aren't the ones not understanding that reading body language and eye contact are important. We aren't the ones wanting to outlaw normal social interaction or people asking others for help. Yet you keep mentioning all these scenarios as if they are relevant? It is certainly confusing.

[SirEdmundFrillary]

dazzler you say: 'as per the program' - what are you talking about?

[WhitegoldWielder]

Actually the more I think about 'social interaction' the more annoyed I get - I can go out with my male friends drinking to a local bar and have a hassle free evening and yet I can't do the same with my female friends even though we are all married and obviously not on the pull. Does that imply that women as a group should not go out together if they don't want unwanted male attention?

[runningforthebusinheels]

Dazzler: As per the program it was agreed that flirting and sexual advances were a part of life.

I love that observation! So it's all been decided on a discussion show hosted by Nicky Campbell that it's a part of life. Oh good - we all just have to put up unwanted advances then?

As it happens - that wasn't what I took away from the program at all. To me, the point was made over and over that this should not just be part of life, and that someone should sense when someone else is not comfortable with their advances- and back right off. I thought the women from the everyday sexism project, and the End Violence Against Women spoke very well - the latter touching on what was needed - for example, education of boys in school re. respecting girls' boundaries.

[TeiTetua]

I'm astonished that there are men trying to be taken seriously by feminists (can they actually want to be seen as feminists???) who are somehow defending this kind of behaviour.

Quote: "How would relationships ever form without sexual advances? Do you want to limit relationships only to those mutually arranged through friends/family, where both parties know the other's intentions ahead of meeting one another? ...
Have you never heard of groups of both sexes going "out on the pull" of an evening? Or two work colleagues dating?"

Yes, it's certainly not a bad idea to find relationships through friends/family. But it's also all right to "go out on the pull" if it's clearly understood who's doing it and who wants to be left alone. Two work colleagues, more dubious but not necessarily wrong; there would presumably have been an introduction ahead of time, and they wouldn't start a relationship as strangers. There are all sorts of other ways that people can start as strangers and become acquaintances and then maybe more, and I imagine most of us have personal experience. For those willing to play those games, there are personal ads and computer matching, too. I can't object to it: my partner and I met that way.

What's all wrong is attempting to strike up an interest in a stranger. But most often, that's hardly the real intentionit's harassment, bullying, pure and simple. Or a half-hearted attempt at one that will more clearly show as the other when the (almost inevitable) rejection comes. What's important to these men isn't finding love and happiness in a cottage with roses by the door, but a man proving to himself that he can have an effect on a woman. Or even on a girlplenty of girls get hassled by boys their own age, and also by men decades older.

News flash. 16 year old girl on her way to school stabbed to death on a bus in Birmingham. A 22 year old man has been arrested. It's not clear what happened yet, but one wonders. Sometimes these things reach the ultimate level.

[curryeater]

Is Dazzler a man or a woman btw?

[WhitegoldWielder]

Dazzler have you ever considered that you could've made any of the women that you've conversed with uncomfortable? Have you thought why they might have replied? Have you knowingly stopped a conversation when you realized that it was unwanted? If someone didn't want to talk to you did you feel annoyed?

[SirEdmundFrillary]

Dazzler159 Thu 07-Mar-13 14:56:28
Until someone actually re-reads what has been posted I'm not actually going to waste my time responding any more.
It really is patently obvious that some of you have some kind of selective reading filter that completely blanks out pertinent comments.
Either that or you're just taking the mick.


Dazzler, I have read back to see what you've posted.

[JugglingFromHereToThere]

Well, being attracted to people is part of life. Doing something about that attraction in terms of checking out whether it might be mutual seems reasonable

It depends on the way that's done doesn't it, whether it's acceptable, or even charming or welcomed ! That definitely includes taking no for an answer as well.

[SirEdmundFrillary]

Larry, what have you to say?

[SirEdmundFrillary]

Juggling speaks sense