sexual advances - the big question

[BramshawHill]

BBC the big question is currently discussing whether sexual advances should be accepted as a part of life.

The first speaker has said it weakens men and women if women complain about it every time, and that it IS a part of life.

Anyone else watching? Thoughts?

First time posting, hello btw!

[Dazzler159]

Fastidia, why the cynicism? It's poor form IMHO and a little insulting that I would be so disrespectful of such a serious topic. But anyway.

I'll level with you. I was thinking about going home when I posted and googled. I found a figure of 95,000 on the BBC but not the unreported stat so (wrongly) assumed it would be like for like. I genuinely thought I was being conservative so I stand corrected.

In fairness I've just googled again and have seen 9 out of 10 from the Mirror, 70-90 percent from Surrey university and then 68 percent on the Independent.

Ok so I'll go with 90 percent but that still doesn't equate to 10 percent.

[TheDoctrineOfSnatch]

Dazzler whatever the percent chance of them being a rapist, there are also chances of them following up with threatening behaviour- calling you a bitch, groping you anyway, spilling your drink, following you round so you have to leave etc. I've had my looks insulted for turning down a guy in a bar when I wanted to talk to my friend for example. And if there is this level of threatening behaviour then you are much more wary if ther might be more levels to come.

[AThingInYourLife]

"By the same token I would be sad of the day when women were scared of talking to me for fear that I were that 1 in 10."

Wake up.

It is that day.

It has been for centuries.

[FastidiaBlueberry]

Quite.

How does a woman know which man is one of the 1 in 10 or 1 in 20 or one in 70 or whatever it is?

Men get really pissed off when women point out that we don't know which one of you is a rapist or an axe murderer.

They just expect us to see the world through their eyes, not through our's.

[Dazzler159]

Ok Fastidia, apolgies for the mixup re: the figures.

Point taken about the following up with abuse. I guess I was raised better than to threaten women but have experienced friends (when I was a lot younger) calling women x,y,z for getting a knockback. Sadly a lot of parents do not raise their boys with the right values and I'm not sure how to solve that one.

Otherwise I don't know where it comes from. We don't see this kind of stuff on TV or on other media so don't see how boys are conditioned to threaten women. I've read research that suggests that some men are violent due to smacking but this has got to be reducing now that smacking kids is on the decline.

AThingInYourLife

I have a very different experience. I often speak to women and are spoken to by women in random situations. Be that work, at the shops, the gym, train station etc. I only do so because it is a 2 way thing and have found that women are as forward/receptive as I am. Maybe I come across as a particularly unthreatening figure? I have no idea. In fact the last time I spoke to a random woman I was on my laptop in an airport and a she sat down and started chatting within a few mins.

I'm not suggesting that you're wrong but in my experience I don't see the same level of fear as has been described.

Don't get me wrong. I know a girl who finished with a guy and he's now in prison because he murdered his new girlfriend. She is now freaked out about meeting new men (obviously) so am not simply seeing things through my eyes. It's just that my personal experience has shaped my personality such that I talk to random women as much as they do to me. Hence my comment about it being a sad day.

[FastidiaBlueberry]

But Dazzler, maybe you're just chatting to random women?

Maybe you're not making "sexual advances" to them?

On the whole, people don't mind having random conversations if they're waiting at bus-stops, for planes etc. Also chances are, when she saw her flight number come up and needed to go, or kept looking at her book paragraph, you stopped talking to her and didn't behave as though you had the right to keep her from her flight/ bus / book/ ipad.

It's really not a minefield. Most men negotiate it with the same ease they take a walk in a park. The ones who find it a minefield, are the nobbers who have a massive sense of grievance that sometimes, women don't want to allow them to take up our space, time and energy. Most men can cope with that concept quite easily, once they've been introduced to it.

[Dazzler159]

Fastidia

You're right, I'm not making any advances as I'm happily married. Anything else and I would be one of those nobbers! I've no doubt that some relationships are formed by such random encounters though.

Anyway I've just watched the programme on iPlayer and I could see all sides of the argument. I think the first speaker was at crossed purposes, as they essentially felt the same, although I didn't agree that women/men should keep quiet for minor incidences. That is for the individual to decide IMHO but I would definitely encourage someone to be vocal.

The problem (as you say) isn't with the 'normal' folk but with those fools that have no moral compass whatsoever. Be it through power, entitlement or some other twisted idea.

I'm glad they all agreed that flirting was perfectly normal/acceptable and ultimately that parenting is the key for the future. As I've mentioned on another thread, I believe the revolution starts at home and think the big gains will be had when parents of boys teach them about respect and parents of girls empower them to speak up and not accept it.

My kids are not long into secondary school yet but I wonder how things like this are progressing, if at all.

www.tes.co.uk/article.aspx?storycode=6028572

[TheDoctrineOfSnatch]

I wonder what the proportion of relationships that start up in a random encounter fashion (both including and excluding bars/clubs) vs the proportion of the approachees who end up being bad mouthed or receiving other threatening behaviour.

No way of knowing, I expect, but I'm genuinely curious.

[SolidGoldBrass]

I saw an incident yesterday that's pretty typical. It was on a crowded bus ie anyone who got on board and wanted to sit down would have to sit next to someone else: fair enough. There was a man who got on board with his friend and had a rather loud conversation, about nothing scary or offensive, something to do with building and decorating and a mutual friend but something about the volume and the body language suggested 'Pest. Nutter. Attention-seeker.' He got bored with his friend and turned his attention to the woman sitting next to him, who was eating a sandwich.
'Enjoying your sandwich?' he bawled. The woman ignored him. He spent the next couple of minutes speculating loudly about whether or not she could speak English, and how rude everyone was these days. Then he shouted at her again, 'Enjoying your sandwich? Is it nice?' At which point the woman (presumably feeling she had no choice) answered him and they began a conversation, which did seem to develop fairly fast into a sharing of experiences about jobs, but at the same time I felt sorry for her, being unable to escape the Nutter On The Bus, and yet I didn't quite get up the nerve to intervene and say 'Look, dickhead, she doesn't want to talk to you, leave her alone.'

I don't think this man was a rapist, I don't even think he was interested in dating her or having sex with her. He just thought that he had every right to pester and talk at a woman he didn't know, who was minding her own business, just because she was there, and she was a woman.

[curryeater]

Fastidia:

"The ones who find it a minefield, are the nobbers who have a massive sense of grievance that sometimes, women don't want to allow them to take up our space, time and energy. Most men can cope with that concept quite easily, once they've been introduced to it."

Yeah but a few aren't getting it on this thread

"I don't consider it entitled...."
"I would be sad of the day when...."

in other words: I like being able to do what I want and don't want to hear that women don't like it

[Dazzler159]

curryeater

Do you understand the concept of humans as sociable animals? I've spent parts of my life in various places in the world and people are very different depending on where you go. As what I would consider a 'rational' human being I tend to adapt my social level to my surroundings.

Believe it or not, some places in the world contain people who are extremely extroverted compared to where I currently live (south of England). So in many cases, women will openly strike up a conversation with a complete stranger or say 'hello' when passing in the street. Being quite sociable I will always reciprocate, unless I am too busy, in which case I will make a polite excuse. As women are like this then I will adapt accordingly. My point is that people constantly impose on each other. I could take your view that it is a rude imposition but that's not my character. Some of the best conversations I've had have been with complete strangers, on busses, trains, airplanes. It's not about, "being able to do what I want". It's about acting in accordance to your surroundings. As per the TV programme it's about reading the signs that someone wants to interact. This is normally possible by making eye contact and reading someone's face.

Clearly some women feel it is their entitlement to strike up conversations with random men so it works both ways. Or maybe they don't think about it quite so deeply and just accept that it's a normal part of human existence. This isn't exclusively about women as it works equally for random men too.

So yes, it would be a sad day when humans felt they couldn't interact socially and I'm glad that I've even been approached by a frail old lady to help with crossing the road. That is entitlement. An old woman thinking that I should take time out of my life to help someone I don't know (happens a lot down south with all the retirees).

How you think your view can apply for all humans is absurd and I'm glad that, to date, people still feel able to strike up a random conversation with me without feeling threatened. As people do this with me then I'm going to act accordingly.

[larrygrylls]

Dazzler,

I 100% agree with your post. I think that 90% of women do and maybe 8% or so are indifferent. It is a tiny minority who see any form of social interaction from a stranger as unwelcome.

I have two small toddlers and one of the nice things about it is that all sorts of people approach me all the time to chat. It is what makes a society. Otherwise, we would just be atomised individuals, which is a recipe for maladjustment and depression.

I find this kind of thread depressing, in the same way as I found it depressing when my football mad father in law passed a football back to a little boy and asked what team he supported, only for the boy to run to his father in abject terror (clearly, he had been taught of "stranger danger"). I do see that a minority of men are entitled and unduly persist when rejected. Save your ire for those.

[SirEdmundFrillary]

Exactly, Solid.

'I don't think this man was a rapist, I don't even think he was interested in dating her or having sex with her. He just thought that he had every right to pester and talk at a woman he didn't know, who was minding her own business, just because she was there, and she was a woman.'

[runningforthebusinheels]

I have been that woman on the bus. It's horrible. Really really horrible.

I don't understand why anyone feels they have the right to do this to another person - bully them into social interaction that is so clearly unwanted - 'sociable animals' or not.

[Dazzler159]

Larry

Exactly. The ire needs to be directed to those fools that genuinely impose on people in a bad way. These people impose upon everyone and it matters not whether you're male/female/old/young. I would say the majority of men/women are reasonable and as such, pose no problem. As ever it's the few that spoil things for the rest of us.

And I agree, having young kids is a great 'barrier breaker' as I've lost count of the times complete strangers (mainly women) approach to pay your kids compliments or to discuss random things. If anything I've found it's mainly women as men are more inclined to feel like they're imposing. I recently had a woman in a shop telling me how beautiful my daughter is. I doubt many men do this for fear of coming across inappropriately (in fact I've never had a man tell me how beautiful my daughter is).

[SirEdmundFrillary]

Dazzler and Larry

Give your comments on this:

'I don't think this man was a rapist, I don't even think he was interested in dating her or having sex with her. He just thought that he had every right to pester and talk at a woman he didn't know, who was minding her own business, just because she was there, and she was a woman.'

[larrygrylls]

SirEdmund,

All these things depend on context. It sounds like a typical nutter unaware of any social boundaries. They generally don't care if the person they are talking to is a man or a woman. A lot are mentally unwell and lonely. Personally, I generally feel sorry for them and chat for a couple of mins and then apologise and say I am busy and terminate the conversation.

Obviously, if you are caught alone with someone like that, it could be scary.

[Dazzler159]

FWIW I agree with Larry and mentioned this in my post earlier.

[SirEdmundFrillary]

Someone minding their own business, is the point. Women go about their lives and often get stuff- what am I saying - I've walked around in the world as a me, I've been shouted at etc by men, not by other women. That must mean something. ?

[Dazzler159]

It's the assumption that he did this solely because it was a woman. You simply cannot assume this IMHO as from my experience, these kind of numpties will harrass anyone.

But I agree, there are guys out there that feel entitled to harrass women and they are scum. No question.

It's what we can do about it. That's the big question as scum like this don't see reason or any wrongdoing in their actions.

[SirEdmundFrillary]

'I don't think this man was a rapist, I don't even think he was interested in dating her or having sex with her. He just thought that he had every right to pester and talk at a woman he didn't know, who was minding her own business, just because she was there, and she was a woman.'

Dazzler and Larry, nothing you've said has addressed this. If you can, do.

[MooncupGoddess]

I'm finding you quite patronising, Dazzler, with your comments like 'Do you understand the concept of humans as sociable animals?'

I've travelled alone and had interesting conversations with men I've sat next to on the train or whatever. Great. No one's talking about that here. I've also experienced many occasions when a man has come up to me, with that hot look in his eyes, moving a bit too close and trying to touch me or ask me personal questions. It's horrible and it is very much something men do to women/girls.

Comments such as 'These people impose upon everyone and it matters not whether you're male/female/old/young.' suggest that you have never experienced what I'm talking about - unsurprisingly, since you're a man - and should therefore try listening to people who have experienced it (among which group I expect every woman posting on this thread is numbered) rather than pontificating about something totally irrelevant.

[larrygrylls]

SirEdmund,

We have addressed it directly if you read our posts. We have said that these people approach men and women. The statement "because she was there and a woman" is just an assumption. He may have done exactly the same were it a man.

[SirEdmundFrillary]

Should sexual advances be accepted as a part of life, was the question.

You say yes. I say no.