So in the wake of a massive public spotlight on rape, the priority apparently is to protect the reputations of the tiny % of men falsely accused of rape

[FastidiaBlueberry]

FFS FFS FFS

Is it very cynical of me to think that this new demand to enable anonymity for men accused of rape (most of whom are guilty, but get off anyway) is a psychological need to re-establish what is most important to these woman-haters?

Stop talking about the mountain of rape victims who never get justice and FGS start talking about the anthill of men who get falsely accused.

Enough of Steubenville, Delhi, Frances Andrade, Jimmy Savile's victims, the 1 in 4 women who are raped or sexually assaulted.

Let's get back to talking about the really important issues - the miniscule number of men who will be falsely accused of rape or who will be the victim of mistaken identity. Fools, don't you know they're more important than all those rape vicitms? That that's a much bigger issue? So what 25% of women are subjected to rape or sexual assault? So what if 85-90% of rape victims don't report? So what that of those who do, only 6% get a guilty verdict even though only between 2-6% are lying or mistaken? Let's get some perspective on this - men matter more than women, stop imagining they don't.

Fuming but off to bed.

I think that considering all the so called "grey areas" (like his word vs her word when they were both drunk) will be useful when we are at a point where all the not "grey area" cases are being competently and vigorously prosecuted.

Fastidia, being accused of rape can lead to very serious consequences, death by vigilantism is far worse than rape for example, so is being beaten to the point of brain damage or permanent disability, even if you escape that, many men can lose their families (ss can take the children if his wife refuses to leave him) which again is worse than rape, rape is a horribly violent, humiliating, degrading, invasive crime but that does not justify injustice toward those falsely accused and permanently tarred as rapists, nor does it mean their pain or the pain of their families is undeserving of sympathy. Even if their only 'punishment' is lifelong unemployment and being a social pariah, well that's their life ruined, it's horrible to pretend that it's no big deal.

Harsh prison sentences for convicts and cultural indoctrination in the schools to civilised behaviour for boys would be a genuine deterrent. Reserve the condemnation for those proven guilty.

@Trekkie
I am really interested in your comments..

May i ask, is your view that the low rape conviction is primarily due to low rate of victims reporting (because the penal system is so unpleasant) or due to the police/etc doing not handling the process well, rather than my original contention that it is just a very difficult crime per se to prove/disprove because of the lack of witnesses/physical evidence ?

I don't mean by my post that you are condemning them by the way, just that putting their identities in the media opens them to condemnation, hate and attacks from others.

There are various reports that have been commissioned by the government which look into all of this so my opinion is informed by those. There was one called the stern report (IIRC) which looked into it all very thoroughly. Also relevant are things like the inquiries into the Warboys and Reid cases, the recent conviction of a met police officer in sapphire shocking and other things that come to light. Brian Paddick's evidence in the Leveson Enquiry about the met vastly altering and then burying a report about their poor handling of rape cases was also interesting.

There is lots of info out there much of it from official sources which can help inform about all of this, google is your friend

holy crap some posts are contradiction junction

rape is one of the worst crimes there is/it is hard to know when a rape has occurred

rape comes down to grey area he said she said/the police will take a statement of rape from someone and this statement alone is enough to arrest a suspect

these things cannot be simultaneously true, they contradict themselves and the other assertions

So yes the first step is to make victims feel confident to come forward, and for police to actually investigate and investigate properly, and not lose the evidence or turn the victim away.

I also think it would be useful if they matched up accusations - many rapists are repeat offenders but lack of evidence means that any reports that do happen go nowhere. If they were linked up then police would have a list of people to keep an eye on, or would be able to combine the different testimonies. IMO if a bunch of totally unrelated people all separately accuse the same person of rape then that person is worth taking a look at. It was that lack of a joined up approach that left Ian Huntley a free man despite a string of separate reports about him for rape and sexual assault of young women and girls. I don't think that "there's no smoke without fire" but by the time you've got 6 reports from totally unrelated victims about the same person and the same crime surely it's worth a look.

thezebrawearspurple all of what you've said can apply to any other crime a man is accused of.

It's only with rape, tht the calls for anonymity are deafening.

Also, rape can lead to mental health problems, depression, self-destructive behaviour, suicide.

I think suicide is no less serious than being beaten to death by a vigilante mob, no?

If I didn't know that we lived in a male supremacist society, where men's lives are valued so much higher than those of women, I'd be astonished by the unequal focus given to the tiny number of men falsely or mistakenly accused of rape, versus the vast number of women who actually experience rape and are seriously harmed by it, sometimes in ways they remain unaware of for years, decades or even the whole of their lives.

it is not astonishing though,just really depressing. pretty clear where society's priorities lie

@Trekkie
Appreciate your knowledgable and balanced views,...can I ask, what is your view on anonymity for the accused (apologies if you have made this clear in previous posts, I have slow internet so only skimmed !)

My view is that it is reasonable, given the social stigma etc of false accusation and the symmetrical argument about accuser anonymity (with the exception of where lack of public awareness might lead to further victims).

yeah yeah Apple, we all know you're in favour of inserting symmetrical arguments where no symmetry exists

how do you decide that anonymity might lead to further victims?

@Fastidia
'If I didn't know that we lived in a male supremacist society, where men's lives are valued so much higher than those of women'

pretty strong stuff !
what do you base this on ?

apple I base this on public discourse and statistics.

Which I can't be bothered to go into just now as this is a thread on anonymity for defendants accused of rape and it would take us off into massive tangents.

Feel free to start a separate thread on it.

Just wondering if anybody know if people have been asked if they don't report rape because of they believe they will not be believed or they think not enough evidence or they can't face talking to people about it, let alone going to court.

My assault was by my ex husband and I only reported it to the police because when I fled the house for help half naked as he looked for a kitchen knife he dropped, my kids were still in the house up stairs.

I would never have chosen to tell anyone. Only two members of my family know some of the details. I ban everyone I know from court. Went on my own.

My question is has there been real valid research into why women don't report?

I think there is an argument for anonimity for people accused of a tranche of serious crimes - sexual assault, rape, murder, people trafficking - all of the serious crimes against people rather than property I guess.

I have heard more people argue that anonimity should be in place for people accused up until they are charged, than all the way to conviction.

I am not sure what I think - I can see the argument for anonimity for people accused of certain crimes but I worry about missing out on other witnesses/victims because of it.

I would absolutely disagree with any move to change the rules for people accused of rape but not of other crimes, and could be persuaded to go on a march about it if someone agreed to look after the children.

Yes apple, do start a different thread on it, maybe in Chat, it would be interesting to see what others (not only feminists) think. I see no evidence that we live in a male supremacist society btw, and I most definitely do not see that men's lives are more valued.

@wonderwoman2012
Great question !

The zebra, do social services really take the children of men who are charged with rape (presumably of someone outside the family unit)
before the case goes to court? Can you post links to any such cases?

Trekkie's post of 20:21 was spot on.

Also, can folks please remember that it isn't accuser vs accused, it is the CPS who chooses to bring the case and the victim is a witness, along with other witnesses eg the policewoman who took her statement and the doctor who examined her.

I had my bag stolen. I made a ppolice report. If the person had been caught, my statement might have been read out in court to establish that i was in the bar at the same time as the thief, or I might have had to testify if i or the police felt I could identify the thief. But I wouldn't have been the accuser - the police would have gathered sufficient evidence to arrest, charge and then prosecute the case.

None so blind as those that will not see...

Wonderwoman there's loads of research on this.

Rape Crisis is a good place to start but if you don't find what you're looking for, they should be able to point you in the right direction.

Someone is accusing someone else if pointing finger and accusation at them.

So most crimes where one person is naming another there is an accuser and the accused.

A person reports someone for punching them in the face. There are no witnesses, that person is accusing??

yes, it's the Crown against the accused

wonderwoman that sounds harrowing, why did you ban your friends/family from court? To protect them? Hope you had someone on your side, even victim support.

Will check out Rape Crisis info thinks. So far everyone talking about it but only seen small case research. Off to have a read. Thanks

@TheDoctrineOfSciAndNatureClub

Thankyou for correction. Sorry for ignorance, but is there not a different legal name/term given to the alleged rape victim and the policewomen ie are they really all termed witnesses ?