a question for the men here

[Mitchy1nge]

what makes you think you have anything of real value to bring to discussions about women's experiences and expectations?

obviously some men can make interesting contributions (although those sorts of men don't often announce themselves here) to some discussions but generally, on the whole, everything everywhere else is already pretty saturated in Male Voice so was just wondering where you got the idea from

Thanks Rowan.

"wallowing in their own sensese of oppression". Always nice to hear.

And - just to forestall you - we can't discuss our dealings with (genuine, non-troll) MNers.

Why do you have to take this stuff so personally? ask the intellectual, clever, and engaged men, who have never considered that the content of the abstract exercise that's so much fun for them is the stuff of my life.

That is just it, isn't it?

I think it's a fairly clear indication that men have an expectation that women communicate in a certain prescribed way. Maybe we should stick to being polite, apologetic, pleading.

MiniTheMinx

I think it's a fairly clear indication that men have an expectation that women communicate in a certain prescribed way. Maybe we should stick to being polite, apologetic, pleading.

Some men perhaps.
I have to say I don't know many pleading or apologetic women (other that in that naice English way, I'll say sorry if you step on my foot). Quite a lot of polite ones.

I didn't realise politesse was expected here; I've often seen courtesy for every side.

I think the 'apologetic' thing is interesting. I agree it's very 'naice English' to apologize for daft stuff in public.

But I do think women apologize quite a lot (some blokes do, of course). I think it's a problem when anyone hedges around what they're saying with a lot of 'I'm sorry, but' or 'I'm sure I'm wrong but'.

There is a women's group I know of where there's an unofficial rule we don't apologize for ourselves or do ourselves down, and I really like that. But I notice how often even very strong and confident women express their opinions quite tentatively and apologetically, even when they're right.

I still have to fight the instinct when a man is offended by my assertion that the patriarchy exists not to say "I'm sorry if my opinion is upsetting you, but...". Never has a man said to me "I'm sorry that my opinion that the patriarchy is all in your head and women do have equality in our society is upsetting you, but..."

Wonder why that is...

Well come on, feminists are only feminists because they enjoy wallowing in their own sense of oppression.

If only they would learn to wallow in laydee-pampering instead, like normal women. They would be so much happier and less angry. And have lovely smooth skin and no pubes.

Women have to wallow in something and that's why spas were invented. If you don't frequent them, you'll find something else to wallow in because nature abhors a vacuum.

YY LRD and sunshone.

Ooh, that's so much better! Turns out my feminist rage was just clogging my pores. That's got rid of it nicely!

Fastidia. Irl I apologise all the time - for things that are not remotely my fault. So does my mother. It's inbred in female line I believe - the males in our family don't apologise all the time.

I read on a thread someone saying their mother used to apologise for the weather. Honestly to god, I have said the words "sorry about the weather!" to visiting friends before.

I recently got treated in an extremely sexist manner in a store (ignored in favour of male customers who arrived after me). They sent me a feedback form, in which I described the service by their (male) colleague. My dh took one look at it, and re-wrote it- he said 'it's like your apologising for getting bad service, and apologising for telling them about it'.

I have repeatedly been told by male academics/teachers that I need to make my conclusions more 'measured' or to be less 'aggressive'. Yesterday a relative explained to me (in reference to a woman feminist academic) that he thinks I need to teach by giving equal value to the theories I think are right, and those I think are wrong (the example was Freud, which is hardly up to date). Obviously it's anecdata, but there are people out there who expect women to express themselves tentatively and apologetically, and not to have firm opinions.

It really gets on my nerves, because now I work mostly with women and I am constantly being told my ideas are fine and I just need to stop apologizing for them and state my case firmly.

I thought the punch line was going to be:

"My dh took one look at it, and re-wrote it- he said 'it's like your apologising for getting bad service, and apologising for telling them about it'."

...and I said, "Sorry, of course you're right."

Interesting to hear the discussion about being apologetic etc, especially your comment LRD above. I grew up in a predominantly female environment, single mum, all girls school etc and I never had to deal with any kind of silencing /talking over me etc
Consequently I have always been very unapologetic in stating my views in the boardroom or wherever and the reactions I get from men at all levels from Chief Exec down are really interesting.

Some call me the Iron Lady and run around seeking approval from 'mummy' these are mainly public school boys and they can be older or younger, more junior or senior it really doesn't matter they pretty much all respond the same way. Others get really pissy and try and find any way they can to undermine me, usually by making sexually aggressive remarks, or by saying I am too aggressive for a woman and I scare the juniors.
It is rare to meet a man who just works with me like a normal person.

What I find interesting about all that is that because I grew up in an environment where women did everything, I have in part missed out on elements of the socialisation that a lot of other women have had. And weirdly I probably behave more like an entitled man as a result. Which is not to say I don't have problems with the patriarchy, clearly I do.
However when people say women behave like this naturally (meek compliant blah blah), men behave like that (aggressive, ego driven, blah, blah) I just think what a load of utter horseshit. I firmly believe that it is socialisation and expectation that makes women behave in certain ways.

I hope that made sense, I know it is only about my personal experience, I am still trying to get to grips with all of this stuff. Also let me be clear I am not trying to say I am in any way 'better' that other women - just that we need to get past this notion of women are this men are that as a society as it is patently nonsense. I am prob preaching to the converted here though!

I've just come across this article online about how women are treated differently for expressing the same feelings as men:

www.careypurcell.com/?p=8432#

Some good examples I thought.

Teitetus - yes that would have been a good punchline!

I probably did apologise

*TeiTetua - sorry for getting your name wrong ;)

Yeah, but...

It's like privilege.
I had real issues with that until I read a post by Scalzi where he described it as difficulty setting, and I went all lightbulb.

Sometimes it's hard to see why all the people are drowning, if you're the fish happily swimming along in an environment that suits you

OMC

Sometimes it's hard to see why all the people are drowning, if you're the fish happily swimming along in an environment that suits you <

Brilliantly put. For reasons absolutely off-topic and which I won't go into, that has just summed something up for me.

I want men on Mumsnet. Lots of men are feminists, and we need them. They may have a different perspective (though I'd never assume that men and women's views on any specific topic must be different) and if they do, I'd like to hear it.

My own first feminist expectations, as a little girl, were fuelled not by my mum but by my dad, who was a GP and, through his experience with them in his work, felt that women were not only equal but probably superior.

All the men in my family - brothers, DH, DSs - have been feminists. I kinda assume that a lot of men are.

But they very rarely have a different perspective. They have a man's perspective - the perspective that we get All. The. Time.

Mmm. I'd say even men who aren't feminists (which I don't identify as, but would say I'm a fellow traveller) gain from discussions here.

I neither understand the full ramifications of the patriarchic view, nor how we move beyond it, but I'm learning.

Here has hardened my views on rape, DV, and abortion [already strongly against the 2 former and pro-Choice for the latter]

I've recognised issues with cis/trans and the minefields that opens and concerns about womanism.

I learned about privilege (well, learned more about it) through reading inspired from here.