Article about BDSM scene not being any more egalitarian than anywhere else.

[FastidiaBlueberry]

I suppose I'm not surprised by this. I don't have anything against BDSM sex per se, but I do think it's absurd to pretend that it's somehow less likely to involve abuse and coercion than any other kind of sex.

article here

Sexual practices get attention (from feminists anyway) because we live in a culture where women are sexually oppressed by men as a consequence of our sex, through the means of sexuality, reproduction rights and sexualised violence. Female oppression is a sex based (in the biological sense) oppression. Hence the interest in matters of a sexual nature. Pregnancy, abortion, rape, DV, sexual abuse, VAW, PIV, contraception - these are all big issues for feminism because they are direct consequences or reasons for our oppression.

you can't argue with it. you either get it or you don't. sex that isn't for procreation is for fun, and i think there are more worrying parts to the patriarchy than what consenting adults like to get up to in the sack. concentrate on abuse and keep your opinion on other peoples consensual pleasures to yourself maybe? Any relationship can be abusive.

JustA, I can understand someone personally finding it difficult to analyse sexuality politically because of the emotion involved but that doesn't mean it shouldn't and cannot be done.

I don't think I said that it shouldn't, Doctrine

Andro wrote - "When you look at the Mosuo people, the application of true matriarchy is a questionable as a patriarchy is. Female authority is absolute, no male can match it on any issue - it's the direct opposite of the more common patriarchal society."

The Mosuo culture is not the direct opposite of patriarchal society. The men have the political power and the women do the housework. It's more matrilineal, in which women are often the head of the household, inheritance is through the female line, and women make business decisions (perhaps similar to how the family of a single mother might operate elsewhere).

Anyway, any female authority in the Mosuo people is now subservient to the patriarchal Communist Party of China.

here's another one

Have we got to feminist bingo yet?

We should be concentrating on other stuff?

If you don't think there's any value to discussing how "consenting" adults whose sexual mores, attitudes, tastes and expectations were formed within the strait-jacket of a male-supremacist society, then I wonder what you're doing on this thread.

This is discussing how this so called egalitarian, consensual world we're all told is so much more equal and respectful and less rapey than the "vanilla" one, is just as saturated with patriarchal abuse as any other sexual arena.

Er, I don't really think that's fair Fastidia.

I said that personally I don't particularly enjoy analysing sexual practices, mainly because I think it's too emotive for people to discuss without offending/getting offended. I also think that there is a lot of emphasis placed on sexuality that could be placed elsewhere.

I think that you could go and find a million articles about BDSM gone wrong...it doesn't mean that BDSM is inherently abusive.

I wasn't specifically referring to your post Justa. More the "i think there are more worrying parts to the patriarchy than what consenting adults like to get up to in the sack. concentrate on abuse and keep your opinion on other peoples consensual pleasures to yourself maybe?" one.

It is valid to analyse practically anything from a feminist angle.

Yes I agree with you.

Going to leave this thread now, having some problems in my personal life at the moment and I feel like I'll end up getting too involved and upset.

This thread has moved on slightly since I started writing my post, hopefully it is okay still to post it.

Andro, thank you for taking the time to write such an informative and full response to my post. You put me outside the BDSM scene, which suggests a clear line between those in the scene and those outside it. Not being flippant, but how is that line drawn?

Secondly, you stress that BDSM is not always about pain (point taken), but then state that it may be about control. To quote ?For a lot of Dom(me)s it's not about getting off on causing pain, it's about being able to control with absolute precision what their sub is experiencing?. This bothers me. The need/desire to be able to control what someone else is experiencing. I am trying to see how that can be a healthy relationship, because to me controlling someone has many negative connotations.

However, I don?t wish to pursue the second point, really, because it sounds like I am judging people?s choices, which I am not, I am trying to understand my own reaction to something. I certainly don't intend to upset anyone.

JustAHolyFool, I hope you are okay.

thank you snow

over and out. silenced.
i dont need to defend what Im into anymore than you do about what you like.
noones business.

which suggests a clear line between those in the scene and those outside it. Not being flippant, but how is that line drawn?

There isn't a clear line in practice; many people explore the fringes of BDSM a think nothing of it (a couple of silk scarves or a blindfold on naughty weekend away for example), yet few would want to explore the D/s lifestyle or heavy bondage.

I would suggest that the line is where there has been no study/appreciation of a good D/s relationship - but that's arbitrary at best.

I take your point about the control aspect and will only say this; for you it has negative connotations and that's fine, you know yourself and your own needs. Others find a strong positive in handing over that control...and many of them would no more be able to understand your perspective than you do theirs.

Thanks, Andro, helpful comments.

the line is where there has been no study/appreciation of a good D/s relationship <

I think that makes sense. I actually think that is a fairly important point.

To your last paragraph, I do get what you are saying. The problem is really what it has taken for me to recognise my own needs, not everyone has a clear sense of self to start with for various reasons, so I wouldn't see it as that black and white.

But yes, I totally understand that people have different perspectives. I'm just trying to understand the ways in which a healthy D/s relationship might work, and why under other conditions, it could be damaging, or an expression of damage.

See this is why BDSM is so patriarchal and serves to prop up patriarchal thinking. Because as soon as you analyse it (I'll analyse what I like thanks Branleuse) people start saying 'but I like it so I don't want you discussing it'. And then the discussion gets shut down because people want sex to be off limits for political discussion - despite the fact that we live in a sex hierarchy.

BDSM is not practised in a social vacuum on another planet by people who have not been socialized by patriarchy.

And lots of feminists think that BDSM should be discussed because it erotisizes violence against women and a lot of it is violence against women. There are plenty of stories of women being abused, raped, safe words ignored, pressured to not use safe words, passed around other men, etc. And of course 'the scene' attracts nasty bastards who get off on abusing women and are provided with the perfect cover for their activities because it is consensual.

Beachcomber
See this is why BDSM is so patriarchal and serves to prop up patriarchal thinking...And lots of feminists think that BDSM should be discussed because it erotisizes violence against women and a lot of it is violence against women.

Surely it also eroticses violence against men and a lot of it is violence against men.

My reading's way out of date on this, but if nothing else isn't there a thriving gay BDSM culture? Certainly used to be in San Francisco in the 70s/80s and while you can view that from a feminist perspective, it's hard to say it's intrinsically anti-woman

OK - so it eroticizes male violence.

And it eroticizes the submission/domination power dynamic upon which male supremacy is founded.

In other words it eroticizes female oppression - and lots of feminists find that pretty offensive and anti-woman.

Unsure how the male gay bathhouses in SF in the 70 erotcized female oppression per se; like the phrase "the submission/domination power dynamic upon which male supremacy is founded", and as I said "you can view that from a feminist perspective".

Most scene players I've met would disagree with that reading.
[Disclaimer: I have no interest in that sort of play, I can see no reason why anyone would enjoy pain, and couldn't smack a woman even if she wanted me to...]

I don't understand what you mean. Gay men having sex in bathhouses is not BDSM.

There were a range of bathouses, and in some there was quite a BDSM scene. ISTR an accidental fire where a couple of men were killed, whilst restrained.

As I say my reading is quite out of date, and I don't know what - if any - the scene is like there now.

OneMoreChap-the BDSM scene is still thriving around the world...with all gender combinations.

And it eroticizes the submission/domination power dynamic upon which male supremacy is founded

Interesting musings snowshapes.