five things women do that frighten men off

[SantaIAmSoFuckingRock]

anyone seen this 5 things women do that frighten men off?

so basically

1. expect to have no input at all into where your relationship, sorry, his relationship with you, is going
   
   2)hide your real self, poor men cant be expected cope with a real woman
   
   
2. do what you were told not to do in no1 and voice your own opinion, but only as far as what you watch on tv. apparently he now wants to date an equal.
   
   4)dont make him jealous, but do.
   
   5)dont have emotions. emotions mean you are out of control and weak.
   
   so, now you all know
   
   but seriously, this has to be a piss take. what woman (the tip giver is a female dating 'expert') honestly believes this shit?

[SantaIAmSoFuckingRock]

totally agree felicity.

[SolidGoldYESBROKEMYSPACEBAR]

If you're on about commitment on the first or second date you are desperate and needy. ANd a magnet for abusers.

[SantaIAmSoFuckingRock]

hang on though SGB if you are looking for a committed relationship why not put your cards on the table from the start. why hide the fact for 3/4 months, knowing it's what you want but unsure if it's what your boyf/girlf wants only to find out later he really only wants to date forever. that's illogical. far better to know straight away of you aren't after the same things that way you can both move on, no feelings hurt and no time wasted. or is it only ok to say upfront if you only want shags and giggles?

[TeiTetua]

Reading the responses I was wondering if I'd have the courage to basically disagree, but then I saw SolidGoldWhatever led the way--actually I think the advice is fairly astute in most places, and not anti-feminist. There genuinely are ways that people drive a potential partner away, and being latched onto quickly, and totally catered to, are likely to be among them. (The article says don't.) If a man has a bizarre tendency to respect women, those things are probably turn-offs. As for "playing games", it's not clear whether the article is saying do it or don't do it. Anyway, every social interaction is game-playing at some level. What it's talking about is the strategy to use.

But I have to say, Section 4, "Try to make him jealous" set my teeth on edge. That was pretty much "Be manipulative" when it could have been "Keep running your life for yourself, not him". So it's a mixed message.

[SolidGoldYESBROKEMYSPACEBAR]

When you first meet someone, you are surely checking that person out to see if you want to spend any more time with him/her at all and s/he is doing the same with you, which is perfectly fair enough. If you are cacking on from the very beginning about wanting commitment then you are desperate and needy and a bit of a loser, and the only people you will get a 'yes pleeeaase, oh this world is so shallow, I want to grow old with you, let's get married' response from are either other losers or they are predators. Anyone with any sense will go 'Whoa, hang on, I don't even know if you eat with your mouth open or think Enoch Powell had a point yet.'

[AbigailAdams]

Desperate and needy are misogynistic adjectives used by abusers for perfectly reasonable behaviour and are designed to keep women in their place. That you are appropriating them to bash women and perpetuate myths is a bit shit tbh.

And she isn't describing people driving potential partners away. She is describing women and tapping into the whole attitudes of society that women need to have a man and they'll.do.anything to get one. So she is saying don't be needy and desperate but you still need to have a man. Yeuch.

[SantaIAmSoFuckingRock]

"When you first meet someone, you are surely checking that person out to see if you want to spend any more time with him/her at all and s/he is doing the same with you,"

yes of course, that's a given but i also want to know what sort of relationship (if any) they are after. i'm not after a commitment to me from them, i'm looking to know if commitment is what they are seeking, whether they want a long term relationship or whether they just want a number in their phone for weekends they have nothing to do (which is fine if that is what i want too)

[KRITIQ]

Nope, nope, nope. As Abigail says, there is so much in there recommends tolerating or coping with what could be or develop into controlling, abusive behaviour.

Solid, I don't think there is any problem with being honest even early on in a dating relationship. If you're looking for a committed relationship, why pretend otherwise? It doesn't mean you automatically think he/she is "the one," but in a way, it almost makes it more straightforward to call time on a relationship that isn't working.

I remember a friend who was very clear that she wanted a settled relationship and to start a family, and was clear about this early on when dating guys. Not surprisingly, some ran a mile, but that weeded out the ones who would have been a waste of time and effort anyhow. Then she met a guy who wanted the same things, they hit it off then engaged, married, daughter, happy, etc.

Older I get the more I realise life's too short for game playing and hoping you can make other people change if you do stuff you don't want to do to please them.

I don't see either how being clear what you want early on in a relationship makes a person a magnet for an abuser. Actually, feel quite uneasy with the idea that the way a person is "attracts" abuse from another, or that a person (and it's pretty well always the woman, face it,) should modify their personality/feelings/behaviour/appearance or some part or parts of themselves with the idea that this will help prevent them becoming victims of abuse? Nope, not getting that.

[LRDtheFeministDude]

I don't believe that at all, SGB.

It's not being a 'loser' to have specific ideas for how you want a relationship to work. That line I've heard trotted out by men who want an excuse to treat women like shit.

If a man or woman knows what he or she wants from a relationship, that is fine. Taking the piss out of that or labelling the behaviour as 'needy' or 'desperate' is just opening the way up for abusive people.

I think you're confusing someone who knows what kind of relationship they want (in the abstract) and someone who thinks they can find any passing date to that ideal.

The first is harmless and normal; the second is a problem.

[AbigailAdams]

Or what Kritiq said!

[SantaIAmSoFuckingRock]

agree KRITIQ

[LRDtheFeministDude]

Btw, it pisses me off that the implication is that same old misogynistic one that men naturally don't want commitment.

Some do, some don't - same as women.

[AbigailAdams]

Yes that is true LRD. And some abusive men will expect commitment off their partner but not give it themselves.

[LRDtheFeministDude]

That's very true AA.

In fact, words like 'needy' and 'desperate' sound disturbingly like the rhetoric of men who expect perfect 'commitment' and 'fidelity' from their female partners, but don't want to give the same.

If someone genuinely feels a particular way, lying in order not to look 'needy' is a shit way to go.

[TeiTetua]

It's a lot better to say, "I'm looking for a committed relationship" than to act as if that's already happened, with a person who's way further back in their level of attachment.

But I can imagine saying/hearing, "Ultimately, I'm looking for a committed relationship", which seems to put more emphasis on the goal as a long-term one and doesn't put the other person on the spot as far as evaluating how things look, right here and now. It can still convey the message "Let's start off and see how things go." Which is a lot less intimidating.

[KRITIQ]

I agree LRD and Abigail - it's an old trope that women are needy and men are shy of commitment. Okay, it's not scientific, but thinking back over relationships of (straight) friends and colleagues, I think it's a pretty even split between men who push for commitment faster than women and other way round.

And, I feel queasy about the use of the term, "needy," which is nearly always applied to women in relationships and considered to be a fault, a failing. People have needs, people have things they want from romantic relationships (but not convinced that these are "needs" - we "need" social interaction, but we don't "need" to be in a committed relationship/have regular sex with another person/be married/ whatever.)

Men want things in relationships, but I think their wants/needs are masked in a way because in our society, we're all conditioned to believe that men are entitled to have their wants/needs met without asking, without showing they have needs/wants at all.

[LRDtheFeministDude]

YY, I agree with that kritiq.

If I'm thinking about the dynamics, I know that if I said I was in a relationship with a man and I didn't want sex yet, but he did, and we'd been going out 5 years, a large number of people would tell me he had 'needs' and I was being unfair. He wouldn't be considered 'needy'.

I don't suggest SGB or anyone else commenting here is one of those people, just to be clear. But there are gendered expectations and the language used - 'needs' vs 'needy' makes me uncomfortable.

[HalloweenNameChange]

What a load of shit. Men all do xyz women all do abc and here is how to be loved by men..

[LRDtheFeministDude]

Yes, where are these men whose minds are such foreign territory?! I don't get it.

[CaseyShraeger]

"You can?t be the one leading the way when it comes to anything like spending more time together, becoming exclusive, moving in or getting married." and in fact you should just leave rather than ever telling him what you actually want?

Because that's going to build a healthy equal partnership...

[FelicityWasSanta]

The idea that women should wait around and be passive rather than being equal in the relationship is what is so damaging.

It is true that a desperate, needy, whiny person will put another person off... However, the suggestion that only women behave like that and that the only acceptable alternative is staying silent and allowing him to have all the ideas first is disgusting.

There is a very clear difference between the person who says 'I want to marry you, let's have babies in the spring' on the first date and the person who says 'I'm not really looking for something casual right now'.

[MoomieAndFreddie]

god i hate all these how to keep your man articles

[rogersmellyonthetelly]

I really really hate this shit. Just be who you are. If he runs a mile he's not what you were looking for anyway.

[SantaIAmSoFuckingRock]

"staying silent and allowing him to have all the ideas first is disgusting."

and bloody patronising too! it's the sort of thing i do when helping my 7 year old do his math homework. i know the answer and i know he will get to it but you wait and let them work out out themselves and then tell them 'well done'.

i think i'm clued up enough to know when a partner is patronising me and i like to give them the same credit. they would know what you were doing. it's ridiculous to suggest that you take no control of what happens in your relationship because it might hurt the male pride not to have thought of something first.

[SolidGoldYESBROKEMYSPACEBAR]

See, I think that wanting a committed relationship is in itself a dubious, unhealthy goal, especially for women. If someone you are dating turns out to be someone that you want to spend a lot of time with and s/he feels the same, good luck and all that, but setting out to Find My Soulmate is basically putting your life on hold when there are so many other things you could do. Even if it's a case of wanting DC and worrying about time running out, there are so many other options available - and if you're looking for a father for your potential DC, you're likely to be even more desperate and forgiving of faults.

And I have also met plenty of men who are needy, desperate, gagging for commitment, full of appalling romantic guff about 'You could be The One' so I, at least, am not saying that it's only women who do this sort of thing.