Raising Sons

[BertieBotts]

I'm sure this has probably been done before, but I thought it might be nice to have a new thread on it to discuss opinions/experiences/ideas.

I'm finding my 4yo DS hard work at the moment (I put a thread over in Parenting if you want to know details, I won't replicate it here) and I've had a lot of reassuring replies about testosterone surges but also a lot of the standard "Boys need exercise" and suggestions to read Raising Boys. (And I think these are great helpful suggestions and am very grateful for the responses so please don't think I'm complaining about these ) - it's just that responses of this type always make me come back to my feminist views and wonder if it's really a boy thing about needing "exercise" and whether you really need a specific book about raising boys, or not.

My gut feeling is that although I don't think girls and boys are fundamentally different, things like hormonal changes obviously will happen at different times and it's worth being aware of these, and also, because we live in a gendered society which has such different expectations for men and women there probably are some differences in approach needed. So I wondered if anyone knew of any books, articles, resources etc about raising boys to be aware of their privilege (without totally disillusioning their sense of self!) respect women/girls as equal, minimising the (societal) link between masculinity and aggression, etc.

The only thing I can offer is the film "Tough Guise" which is very good about society's link between masculinity and aggression. It used to be on youtube but the full thing isn't there any more - it's around 10 years old and American but very relevant here I think too. If you can get hold of it without too much trouble it's really interesting to watch, if not there are various articles, blogs etc about it online.

[exoticfruits]

I am just thoroughly glad that I am not male.

[exoticfruits]

I have always felt immensely privileged to be a woman.

[FastidiaBlueberry]

"the likely socioecomoc educational outcomes of a white mc female exceeds that of a poor bme male."

But you're not comparing like with like.

To have a gauge of whether all things are equal regarding gender, you need to compare a white mc female with a white mc male and a poor bme male with a poor bme female.

We've had this very basic not very hard to over-think concept discussed over and over again. You know this SM.

[FastidiaBlueberry]

LOL, I'm not preoccupied with whether you're feminist "enough" or not sm, it's of no interest at all to me.

I am interested in feminist ideas though, I don't think it's totally unreasonable to look for some in the feminist section. Won't be starting a thread abut it in AIBU though.

[LRDtheFeministDude]

There are right answers. I don't know who has them but it's idiotic to pretend there are no right answers in the world.

There are. Your children must know this, even if you never tried to teach them.

[scottishmummy]

I too am interested in feminist discussion on mn
unlike you I don't call people underthinkers if their opinion differ from mine
and you need to expect divergent koi io son mn.it's not feminist forum so you will encounter views you are not necessarily interested in.that's the rub

[FastidiaBlueberry]

For the record SM, underthinkers is anyone who has the fucking brass-neck to tell a poster asking for support, that she's over-thinking things.

I think that 's a shitty thing to do and totally against the ethos of mumsnet. If someone wants support on something I think is stupid, I just ignore the thread, I don't go on there and tell her she's over-thinking it and should just get on with it. That's a horrible thing to do and it pisses me off that people think it's OK to do it to women asking about parenting on the feminism boards, but they wouldn't think it was OK to do it on any other boards. It's just horrible.

[FastidiaBlueberry]

You keep on telling me I'll meet posters whose views are divergent with my own SM.

I'm aware of that.

As I say, you seem obsessed.

[scottishmummy]

you may be aware other views permissible,but are dismissive of them
now I see you're trying to dismiss this as my personal obsession.not so
think you'll find I mirroring mnhq stance,lively topic,all views welcome

[FastidiaBlueberry]

But your views aren't lively.

[FastidiaBlueberry]

Sorry, you want me to be not dismissive of them?

You want me to agree with them?

[BertieBotts]

Yes I "believe" in male privilege. Which, as has been explained by others, is not about individual privilege. So.. I don't really see the point in explaining that over again, there have been links and explanations etc.

If you're talking about feeling privileged to be a woman, taking other factors into account, then you're misunderstanding the term as it was intended.

[scottishmummy]

is that your best put down.how very lame
anyhow I think op is actually getting too socialsciencetastic about this.
if she raises her son with good values,and love he'll be fine man.no book required

[BertieBotts]

No, nobody needs a book, but I like reading books. And I happen to be a sociology student so I'll take that dig with slight amusement.

I mean, does it really harm to talk about this stuff? It's not like I'm going to sit him down and lecture him about the evils of giving into your masculine desires and sign him up for ballet just to make a point despite the fact he hates dancing. It's just a discussion?

[FastidiaBlueberry]

The OP wants some ideas beyond the obvious. Good values and love are a given, that's a bit like saying she should give him some food occasionally, that's a good idea as well. I'm not dissing good values and love, like food, they're a basic, but I don't think OP needs to start a thread on MN to get that and tbh I kind of assume she's doing that already.

[scottishmummy]

we all impart our core values and norms,you don't need book for that
demonstrate your values op,be equitable and fair.raise children you're proud of
and I think it's fatalistic to presume your son will have and exert privilege

[exoticfruits]

It is actually only women who end up giving me the very patronising 'put down' that since I don't agree I am actually too dim to understand!

[LRDtheFeministDude]

This isn't a book. It's a forum. And lots of people obviously do want to chat about ways to impart their values. If you're already perfect at turning out children who share yours, you could just ignore the thread?

It's not 'fatalistic' to presume a boy will have and exert privilege - it's simply the definition of 'male privilege', which is a basic concept in feminism. No-one is forcing you, personally, to agree with that concept, but even if you disagree, there's no element of fatalism there.

[FastidiaBlueberry]

Don't be silly Bertie, you can't have a discussion about a feminist approach to parenting on the feminist board of Mumsnet.

Just like you can't have a discussion about a Christian approach to parenting on the spiritual board.

[FastidiaBlueberry]

Maybe women wouldn't patronise you if you followed the arguments and didn't pretend people had said things they hadn't and didn't try and put people down by saying or implying that they spend their time manipulating and preaching to their children Exotic?

Just a thought. You don't seem to have any difficulty putting other women down and then acting baffled when they respond in kind.

[BertieBotts]

FFS, I've not said that at all. You're talking about privilege in terms of individual privilege, feelings, etc. I'm talking about privilege as a social factor which is a totally different thing. And it's not something you can "exert" either because, again, it's a social factor rather than something experienced on an individual level. It's a hidden advantage, if you like.

[scottishmummy]

oh tosh,discuss what you want just don't expect everyone to concur
on mn you post,people may or may not agree.that's the rub
fem topics discuss feminism.if you want a feminist forum you'll not find it on mn

[LRDtheFeministDude]

I think MN as a whole is a feminist forum.

This is why I like it.

[FastidiaBlueberry]

Do you have any other contribution to Bertie's thread to make SM?

Love, her values, food and water.... I think we can all agree those are a good idea (although that's only an opinion, I realise I may be wrong on that and other ideas, like ignoring the kids and feeding them only peas for months on end, are equally valid and welcome on the feminist section of MN). Would you like to suggest anything else? We know what you don't want - feminist ideas - but anything positive to suggest?

[inde]

If it's not an individual thing then I'm not sure it's got all that much to do with bringing up an individual.

IMO the main difference to bringing up boys and girls is that boys should be brought up to respect women and that violence against them is always wrong, ie you just don't hit girls ever. Girls should be brought up to respect themselves.