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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

1/2 of all state schools have no girls sitting physics A level

391 replies

Himalaya · 03/10/2012 08:46

Shock

Just listening on the radio. Sad

Thoughts? Experience? Ideas?

OP posts:
alibeenherealongtime · 03/10/2012 16:30

DD did Physics, there were 3 in her class ( indy) and Fast maths - A2 in a year and got an A grade, dropped further maths as didn't need it and decided it was hard work!

She was told to apply for Cambridge as she would get in on low grades as a girl, but she said she did it because she enjoyed it not wanted to do it for the future. She did French at Uni.

Rollersara · 03/10/2012 16:31

I did physics A-level because I was good at it, then went on to do a physics degree. I reckon both A-level and degree classes were about 60/40 men/women. Sad that this seems to have changed.

I used to hate it when people described physics as "unimaginative" or "umcreative" - where else would you learn about the basic constituents of matter in one and in the next, how galaxies are born? Also stood me in great stead for employment, now a sciene writer!

sciencelover · 03/10/2012 16:32

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

crazymum53 · 03/10/2012 16:34

Women in Science and engineering does still exist - look up AWISE. They do have some local groups.
Interesting debate. I did a level Physics, Maths and Chemistry at all girls school in the 1980s. Then Science degree in Chemistry and PGCE.
Interestingly I did an independent study as part of my PGCE on this very topic. Most of the education research at the time (early 90s) was that the following factors encouraged girls to take up Science are: all girls schools or teaching groups, girls whose fathers (or indeed mothers) who work in Science or engineering are more likely to study science. However the other factors were to do with the way that Science is taught. Girls are more likely to be interested in people rather than things so as Physics is usually about how things work this usually appeals more to boys. Biology tends to be more closely related to people and animals so tends to appeal more to girls. There were ideas in the research about how to make Physics more girl-friendly but this obviously has not been put into action.

wanderingalbatross · 03/10/2012 16:35

whoknows I'm not a member of a professional body, but I'll take a look at the relevant ones to see what they're up to :) Also not sure how much time I have on my hands due to small kids, but I like doing (too much) stuff!

Rollersara · 03/10/2012 16:41

albatross' you could also try STEMNET?

minipie · 03/10/2012 16:47

crazymum I don't think they should try to make Physics more "girl friendly" personally. I think the important thing to remember is that not all girls fit those stereotype. So, even if say 7 out of 10 girls are more interested in people rather than things (and so arguably would be less interested in Physics), 3 out of 10 are the other way round. There should still be encouragement and opportunities for those 3 out of 10. Hope that makes sense.

ouryve · 03/10/2012 16:56

How would it be possible to make physics more "girl friendly"? It is what it is.

OneLittleToddlingTerror · 03/10/2012 16:56

"Is there any point taking physics though if you don't want to do a physics degree/become a physics teacher?"

Yes and no. I think almost everyone who does STEM subjects at university level does physics (and maths). I believe it was required to have physics to do an engineering undergrad. And I think you'll really struggle without it.

I studied in NZ and my physics class at 6th/7th form had 3 girls, all chinese. It's similar with my engineering class, all the girls are either chinese or indian. At least in NZ, it's a cultural thing where white girls don't consider doing STEM subjects at all. If they do science it's always biology, and maybe chemistry.

minipie · 03/10/2012 17:03

She was told to apply for Cambridge as she would get in on low grades as a girl

Whaat? Shock

EmmelineGoulden · 03/10/2012 17:04

I think making physics more girl friendly could be helpful, but I suspect we'd need a lot of very high quality research to get to something decent instead of the "Science, it's a girl thing" type of marketing schmalz.

In computer science there was some research (back in the 90s) about the way putting certain courses on the first year of a BSc increased the staying on rate of female comp sci students. Things like database courses and human computer interaction (instead of graphics and Icantrememeberwhatelse). It wasn't about changing the content of the degree at all, merely about putting some courses first instead of others. Given most physics courses are probably designed by mainly men it isn't a big step to assume they create courses more likely to appeal to boys.

Overall though, despite the appeal of the stats for single sex schools, I think what the education sector needs to wake up to is that our society is still very sexist when it comes to education. Girls and boys are getting very different messages about school, academics in different subjects, and jobs. Single sex education is only a mask over the underlying problem - that girls and boys are not afforded the same opportunity in our society.

OneLittleToddlingTerror · 03/10/2012 17:13

Girls are getting the message that you only need to look pretty and marry rich from a very young age. I despair looking at all the princess toys. It's wonderful during the olympics where we see women celebrated for their achievement. But how long will that last?

GnomeDePlume · 03/10/2012 17:20

My DD didnt carry Physics on to A level despite it being one of her A* subjects and despite her wanting to carry on into a science career (Chemistry) quite simply because the subject was so badly taught at her secondary school. Nothing to do with how many girls there were or werent in the class.

TheDoctrineOfSnatch · 03/10/2012 17:20

Yes it absolutely is worth doing physics if you aren't going to be a physics teacher! I have worked in finance since finishing my degree and the majority of people I worked with did Maths/science/engineering degrees (and the few that didn't had one or more science A levels).

Of course the subject becomes more detail focused as you progress, I think that is true of anything though eg I like being able to order a sandwich in France, less keen on analysing Moliere.

Maybe an overall push is needed about the diversity of careers available from a science background?

Tim Harford wrote in Adapt about how easy it is to "socialise" test results eg women and men in a Maths class who had read a scripted article about how hard their gender found tests on a specific topic then did lots worse when tested on that topic - Of course a "physics is hard, especially for women" meme in society will have an impact.

GrendelsMum · 03/10/2012 17:27

There are recurring concerns raised within the science education community that physics is taught 'less well' than biology and chemistry, by which people appear to mean more chalk and talk, and less interactive teaching. (I have to say that I haven't seen any evidence to back this up, but in certain circles its very much a truism.) The word is that many students are likely to enjoy biology in a way that they don't enjoy other A-level sciences, and so opt to take it at 16 without planning to study beyond A-level, whereas physics is chosen only by those who are already thinking about a University course for which physics is a prerequisite.

I wonder whether, if this is the case, whether it does affect gender taking the courses?

Bonsoir · 03/10/2012 17:31

I didn't want to carry on with physics at school because it would have meant spending several hours a week in a lab with a hairy teacher with BO and bad breath and an obsession with bicycles and a lot of spotty smelly teenaged boys. Italian with a glamorous lady teacher and fragrant teenaged girls seemed so much more appealing.

GnomeDePlume · 03/10/2012 17:39

GrendelsMum for DD it was the style of the teaching. Not a problem with chalk and talk (DD is a keen mathematician) but just the way that the teacher conveyed the information. It sank in but DD was left with a dislike of the subject.

WhoKnowsWhereTheTimeGoes · 03/10/2012 17:42

My A level choices (physics, chem, pure maths) were chemistry as I liked it best, maths and physics because I hadn't done O level biology and I didn't think I could handle applied maths as well as pure. So it goes back to O level choices at 14, I chose physics over biology at that point. I think at that stage I was not very in tune with most of my female classmates, I remember feeling frustrated that none of them seemed to have much ambition beyond getting married and having children, perhaps aspiring to be receptionists or work in shops until they had their children (no disrespect to those choices, but they were definitely not for me). Whereas I wanted to go to university and so did a lot of the boys. I think I gravitated towards male dominated subjects as a result, including preferring physics to biology.

GrendelsMum · 03/10/2012 17:44

GnomeDePlume - interesting, though I have to say I had the world's least 'chalk and talk' maths teachers, which I guess is why I always enjoyed it so much.

DorisBoltneck · 03/10/2012 17:46

My dd did physics, biology and chemistry at A-level and has just gone off the uni. She had a female physics teacher who was very supportive of her and willing to put in lots of time outside of lessons, which I think helped a lot.

She went to a co-ed school.

Mayisout · 03/10/2012 17:53

I did physics. It wasn't that hard, memorising equations and then using them as required, though am sure it's different now. The two other girls who were in my class went on to study medicine.

Also you cannot do engineering without physics and there is a WORLDWIDE SHORTAGE OF ENGINEERS - don't think this applies to any other career so girls should definitely do physics.

GnomeDePlume · 03/10/2012 17:57

I wonder also if the modular maths teaching has had an impact on general uptake of Physics and Maths for A level?

DD sat her final Maths exam last November. She was then put on a quick stats course. This means that between November last year and the start of AS Maths in September all she has studied is stats. Now I'm not mathematician but I dont think that this is great preparation for maths or science A levels.

I wonder how many students in a similar position lose confidence in their maths before they choose their A levels?

Stellarpunk · 03/10/2012 18:09

grendelsmum I cannot speak for other teachers but in my school that simply isn't true.

I am never a day teaching without one practical or another. Also, physics is surprisingly more popular with those that don't need it than do. For example, most are med candidates or PPE. The minority study Engineering where the very few - i.e 1 or 2 in say 60 odd, do a physics degree. Also, please do not assume that talk and chalk = bad. I have seen very ropy lessons involving PPoint. At the highest of levels - say particle or quantum, I find that discussions work best of all. The great danger is when some teachers may choose to explain a concept via the maths only. It is a great temptation.

Please note that I do teach in a state selective.

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