Coerced sex IS rape

[EatsBrainsAndLeaves]

This thread comes out of a discussion I had with a friend who didnt seem to think coerced sex is rape. I think coerced sex clearly is rape. If a man has to persuade, cajole and pester you for sex, you are not consenting. Non consensual sex is rape.

What do others think?

Yes, I think a court would. I am not a lawyer. But threatening physical violence to someone in order to make them consent is obviously rape, so is threatening them in terms of withdrawing financial support etc.

I don't know you personally and don't want to get into it. You know how you feel.

No-one has the right to make you have sex against your will.

Coerced sex is rape.

By definition, persuasion and cajoling are NOT coercion. All you need is a dictionary. Persuasion is a way of changing someones mind. If I persuade you to come for a run with me, do you feel coerced into it? If you substitute anything else for sex, you will see how ridiculous equation coercion with cajoling or persuasion is. They are just completely different words with different meanings. Pestering is in the middle. If you feel threatened by it, it could just about fall into a grey area. If not, again not rape.

And, to say this thread is "about women" is disingenuous. Rape is a crime for which people (normally men) go to jail (and rightly so). Changing the definition to include persuasion or cajoling would affect men a lot.

I am not talking about what the law defines, but what we see as rape as women.

If you didnt really want to have sex but were persuaded, threatened, whined or sulked into it, then it is rape.

Saying you might be up for sex if you have a massage is giving consent to try and see. Although of course that consent can be withdrawn at any time.

It doesnt take rocket science to know whether your partner really wants sex or not. If you care about your partner at all, why would you want her to have sex she doesnt really want?

Eats,

If I substituted going out for dinner for sex, would you find persuasion so unreasonable? For instance, if you really fancied a meal out but your partner/friend said they were tired but then you reminded them of how much they enjoyed it before and that they would have a good time once they were there. If, at that point, they smiled and said "go on then, let's go", would you regard them as having been coerced?

Aren't we playing semantics here? Coerce means to compel by force So if you coerce someone into having sex, you are compeling them by force, which is obviously rape.
EatsBrainAndLeaves - is that what you meant by coerce?

I don't understand why anyone would want to change the definition of rape to include sex after 'cajoling'. There is no 'grey area' IMO.

There is sex that is consensual, which may involve foreplay of many many kinds. And there is rape.

If a woman doesn't want to have sex, and doesn't consent, don't have sex with her.

Several of us on this thread are describing situations where we might be happy with some foreplay, but we're not yet sure if we want sex. That is normal, surely? Consent is a continual process, it's not like we have to decide at the beginning 'yes, I will definitely consent to sex in half an hour after you rub my feet'. We get to decide at the time. That does not make what happens in the intervening time 'coersion'.

The only people in whose interests it would be to blur the line between 'coersion' and 'consent' are rapists.

larry - going out for a meal really is not the same as sex. That is why we dont have a criminal offence of - being forced to go out for dinner. It is a totally false analogy.

If a woman doesnt want sex why would you want to persuade her? And this is not about changing our mind.

Many women will say they have had sex at times when they didnt really want to. So what would you call that?

And to be clear, I would call it rape.

If you didnt really want to have sex but were persuaded, threatened, whined or sulked into it, then it is rape.

Nonsense. If my partner wanted sex and whined about it I'd tell him to go and wank himself off in the shower.

What creeps me out is someone reads a thread like this, and thinks 'ah, I can just re-define what I do as 'persuasion' and then they can't argue back'. That's the same kind of logic that has people saying 'well, it wasn't really rape because she has had sex with me before' or other similar crap.

I don't see why we need to discuss what is coersion and what is 'persuasion' or 'cajoling' when acting as if it's difficult to define is just going to make rapists think they have an excuse.

The idea that they do is a rape myth spread by rapists. Spot on.

IMO there are three separate categories that we're talking about here.

Persuading and being persuaded, consensually, with no pressure = absolutely fine, (hopefully!) normal sex.

Mild coercion where the coercee knows that the consequence of refusing will be unpleasant but bearable, e.g. putting up with moaning or sulking or the other partner leaving when there isn't that much invested in the relationship isn't rape because the coercee is still making a choice, it's not a very nice choice and it's still wrong but it's not rape. However I think this is where the argument about how rape law shouldn't centre on consent comes in, because it's not exactly consensual either.

The kind of coercion where agreeing/consenting is the only reasonable option because the other option/consequence is so terrible is rape even if the victim agrees/consents. So this covers stuff like fear, threat or implied threat of violence or use of force (if you don't agree I'll just do it anyway), threat of removing financial or physical assistance when that is relied on, threat of divorcing if there is a high level of shame attached to it for the victim, threat of harm or removal of access to children, physically refusing to let someone leave a space until they give in etc.

"Many women have sex without really wanting to"

"Let's be clear I call that rape".

Surely it depends on the circumstances? My partner doesn't even know that I don't want to do it, so how can that be rape?

We're talking cross purposes, aren't we?

Despite what rape apologists think, women (and men) sometimes want sex, and sometimes do not. At some point we change our minds - now we want sex; now we don't any more.

I can decide I want sex after DH gives me a massage/I take two paracetamol and they work/I go out for a lovely romantic meal. Or I can decide out of the blue, just because he's walked in the door. So what? What matters is that I'm consenting and happy, and he's consenting and happy.

If I'm not consenting, no amount of coersion or whatever you choose to call it, is going to make rape less rape.

This discussion is to state clearly that rape does not have to involve physical force or threats to be rape.

Rape is any sex where a woman has not truly consented.

So rape includes being bullied into it, pressured into it through whining and sulking, pestered for it so much you are worn down and agree although you do not really want it.

These are all clearly examples of rape.

whistle - if you don't know that someone you're having sex with wants it, you stop. Simple.

I consent, I go along with it. It's even ok when I'm doing it. I would just rather not be doing it.

So what is making you consent whistle?

That sounds awful to me, I'm sorry.

I am not really sure how to respond to you, because obviously you know how you feel and what the situation is with you, and I can't know that.

To me, though, accepting that if you don't want sex, you don't have to have sex, is basic. I don't understand the concept of consenting to something you don't want to do.

Well I pestered dh when we were ttc but I really don't think that I raped him.

Whistle- youre free to label your own experiences as you feel appropriate. Why take it personally?

I remember being told on here once i had been raped, i entirely disputed that and still do, because i am a grown-up and feel/felt absolutely zero negative feelings about the incident whatsoever (consent/sleep issue) But i would MUCH rather the very black and white facts about what constitutes rape continue to be clearly stated.

I can decide for myself about my own personal experiences but dont feel the need to argue against the entire premise of consent in order to justify it.

The reason I don't want to have sex is because I put on weight after the birth of my second child. I'm not even huge but I was very thin before I had children and had unhealthy issues with food. I look in the mirror and I don't feel sexy, it's possible that I have "issues". I don't want to discuss my feelings with dh. I would rather have sex than talk about how I feel. When I lose weight I will want sex again. I'm probably screwed in the head but there you go.